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[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 13:30:05 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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Freakdog, tha'ts the same as "for <variable> in <list>; do ... ; done" in sh.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 13:32:55 EST from Tony Preston @ Uncensored

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I use bash on linux.... might as well go with the default. A shell is a Shell...

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:23:12 EST from roue @ Dog Pound BBS II

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shell scripting? isn't that what perl is for?

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:00:57 EST from Mr.T @ Uncensored

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This is why you should just do your scripting in Perl. :)

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:03:38 EST from Chickenhead @ Uncensored

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I used to do all my scripting in KSH + SED + AWK. The only thing to break
me of that habit is Python. :)

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:12:31 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Yes, I think for a scripting language, Python pretty well does it for me.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:15:10 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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Strange, lately I've actually been doing scripting in PHP.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:19:21 EST from Peter Pulse @ Uncensored

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Any one of those is better than shell. Perhaps I just don't see the beauty of shell programming because I've never really learned it well enough. But the few times I've tried to do anything significant in the shell it's been nothing but trouble. As I've said before, the beautiful thing for me about learning perl is that I can now do everything I wanted to do with the shell, awk, sed, etc.. without having to deal with the shell.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:22:20 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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And I rarely run into anything I can't do in the shell, or can't do easily.
Then I go hook into some other language, like PHP, Perl or Python (in fact, I have a script that uses all three for various components of its task).

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:31:29 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Perl.

*whimper*

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:46:33 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Shell for system automation, PHP for active web content, C for everything else.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:47:10 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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How about C++? <GRIN>

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:49:39 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Certainly fine by me.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:52:22 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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A lot of us old-school C programmers have a lot of problems with C++, since it doesn't really support our favorite programming methodology, which is to just sit down and start writing code. We're not that accustomed to thinking in terms of designing objects and interfaces. We're more used to what a program does, than what it's composed of.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:53:50 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I have to confess, I had to do some serious mind warping to become accustomed to thinking in terms of objects instead of procedures.

Today, I can just sit down and start writing code... for objects instead of procedure. And I like it.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 14:59:48 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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Well, if you change your thinking from "what's the procedure to do this" to "how do these components interact" then the transition isn't all that hard.
It's still rather mind-jarring, though.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 15:01:13 EST from Chickenhead @ Uncensored

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The thing I despise about C++ (and C to a certain extent) is the wretched
complexity of the whole language. Object-oriented programming is NOT
supposed to be so complicated and messy. That's why I spend more and more
time with Python..it's almost a no-brainer.

But then again I admit I AM biased...I spent a lot of time working with
Smalltalk-80--C++ is horrible in comparison. Python on the other hand is
quite good...it almost passes the Smalltalk test (all it really lacks is
a good class browser). And unlike Smalltalk, Python is actually going
places...

(I say that with a great amount of pain...I still love Smalltalk, but even
the Squeak project is not making the language and environment more accessible.
Which is a pity--Squeak is easily more portable and much faster than Java!
And Morphic GUI objects have no parallel to anything else out there...)

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 15:04:30 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I love Squeak and Smalltalk-80 in general.

I agree that the language is much nicer than C++.

OTOH, I've become accustomed to C++ and C. And you can't really do any early binding in Smalltalk, so you have possible performance problems in certain situations.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 15:05:24 EST from IO ERROR @ Uncensored

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Ah, here we go with strong typing vs. weak typing.

Chickenhead, so much of the "wretched complexity" you see in C++/C is due to its strong type checking. Python and Smalltalk don't HAVE type checking; pretty much any type can be implicitly converted into any other. The two approaches are radically different, and they have their strengths and weaknesses.


I'll say first off that I'm biased toward strong type checking, since it catches errors at compile and link time, that in Python and Smalltalk you wouldn't catch until runtime.

[#] Tue Feb 17 2004 15:11:17 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Heh.. yeah, I have come to seriously appreciate strong typing, too.

I hate it when I'm in the middle of a build, and something fucks up strictly because an object is referring to another object's method without knowing that the method doesn't exist for that object (due to late binding without strong type checking).

I find myself, then, having to debug the problem in the middle of doing work I need to get done. I would rather have found out about it beforehand.

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