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[#] Tue Mar 31 2009 23:15:06 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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course the colorful variety available in various versions of unix.

erm, various versions of linux

[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 06:52:57 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Tue Mar 31 2009 23:10:18 EDT from Ford II <>
This job isn't that bad. In my previous job, I found myself having to work
as the build and setup guy in an all-Windows environment. I had none of the

Which is an insane waste of your talent. I can't believe there are companies that do this to people.
Even if I was an idiot and owned a stupid company, if I came across somebody like you, I'd just stick you in a corner and say "write me some software that I can sell."

Well, it had one good result.  I have a much better idea of how to put the software bits together, making my sense of design better.

I probably wouldn't have taken setup and build as seriously as I do now, had I not endured it in the way I did.  I'd go a long way to avoid the kinds of mistakes I saw at my last job.  My current boss seems to recognize this, and includes me in all the design work... which makes everything so much easier for me.

I just hope we can make some money at all of this.



[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 06:58:13 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Yeah, I've heard it suggested that unix is just as insane as Windows, just a different kind of insane (and perhaps the word 'different' is meant as a pun).

I think I could probably write something that would work similarly in all unixes, at least as far as threading goes, without having to do a ridiculous amount of work, thanks to boost (who provides a thread class that seems to account for all the various weirdnesses).  Although, honestly, I like to avoid using threads as much as possible; I try to gain the same results through asynchronous I/O if possible.

Databases, though, suck.  I really hate that SQL and ODBC are as standard as HTML; each engine seems to have their own idea of a standard, and loosely conform to SQL/ODBC (and in the case of browsers, HTML).  It's like you can mostly do what you need, but not really without performing a lot of additional and pointless code to differentiate between the various engines.



[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 09:30:58 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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In any case it's a good discipline to learn to write your code and build your systems as portably as possible.

[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 10:43:54 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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You should install lsof from sunfreeware.com.....

You could also use pfiles in Solaris, but it's not as detailed as lsof.

This was for Ford, and it was a few messages back.... I should have quoted, but I was lazy.

[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 15:22:45 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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yes, pfiles, that the one. that's what you end up having to do.
My point was even the useful popular tools aren't stanadard across systems.
I just found out last week or two weeks ago that some crons compensate for daylight savings, and some do not. Learn something every day.
Today I learned when yahzee complains about something it's funny, when i complain about something, it's annoying.

[#] Wed Apr 01 2009 20:39:28 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Wed Apr 01 2009 09:30:58 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar <>
In any case it's a good discipline to learn to write your code and build your systems as portably as possible.

Definately true.

I try to write everything as if it needed to be recompiled on a unix system... with the exception of areas that absolutely have to be tied to the operating system (e.g. drivers are involved, or third party code that only runs on Windows, etc).

The only exception I make to this is in handling INI files.  I love boost, but it's INI file handling throws exceptions when someone writes something into the INI file that doesn't belong.  Although I could probably find some way to suppress this behavior, it's just nasty enough that I would prefer to use the Win32 functions to handle the same job.  Sucks, but it sucks even more to have a new kind of parameter that doesn't exist in older versions of the program, yet the older program crashes when you use the newer parameter.



[#] Fri Apr 03 2009 09:09:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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You could also use pfiles in Solaris, but it's not as detailed as
lsof.

I've always been a fan of g-files, myself...

[#] Tue Apr 07 2009 11:38:31 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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I realy love to have found a job in a unix booth in an acceptable range.

though most of my collegues do their work on wintendos (the VS 6 debugger is so much better than gdb ... *coughcough*) I've found my way to use Linux as my primary development platform and workstation.

Tools like valgrind and kprof and a native environment to develop milters on have strengthened my position with that choice.

Many of our customers installations run on Solaris, so i've got to make my way through that too (and my unix afinity probably helps me here) plus there are some others running different flavours of linux.

so... its got its drawbacks, but I wouldn't trade them to be forced to do windows development again.



[#] Tue Apr 07 2009 11:42:02 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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btw... fleeb... on unison... USE THE SOURCE LUKE!

its fucking there so stop whining and add the features you need.



[#] Tue Apr 07 2009 17:40:04 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Sure, yeah, I can modify the code to Unison. No problem.

Except, of course, that I didn't have time. I had to get my entire project finished that day, and fucking with Unison was only a portion of the full project that I needed accomplished.

I managed to gain my goals working with their design as it was. It isn't perfect, but it'll do until I can make the changes I need to make.

But, honestly, I'd rather use rsync. That project is already maintained by folks who really know the domain, and the tool will do exactly what I want.
So, I just need to modify all my XP Embedded images to work properly with rsync. I suspect I can pull this off now (by adding the NUL: device), so I'll give that a shot when time permits.

And that's really the issue. I only whine when I don't have time to dick around with someone else's tools. I did not expect to use Unison, and honestly, I didn't have the time to sit down and understand why they designed it the way they did. For my needs, though, it's terrible. Shitty product. I'm sure it's perfect for what it was designed to do, though, but it was absolutely terrible for my needs.

[#] Tue Apr 07 2009 19:40:53 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I think dick around is an appropriate term here.
Everybody says "oh just look at the source, and fix it."
Anybody who says that doesn't spend a lot of time doing that or they'd know that there's a huge learning curve to figure out where the piece you want to fix is.
and you're supposed to do this for lots of systems as you need them?
Right.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 11:24:59 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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That sort of misses the point.

Not everyone is going to become an expert at the internals of every program for which source is available.

The idea is that if everyone is a potential developer for a program, the chances are higher that any given issue will be fixed by *someone* with enough motivation. Multiply that times the number of programs and the number of potential developers and you end up with a vastly improved model for fixes and enhancements.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 12:30:13 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Open source is a good idea, overall. It certainly seems to provide a better model for Getting Things Done than the closed source model.

However, I was responding to the 'quit whining' post by pointing out that, in this instance, I lacked the motivation (or, if you will, time) to address the issue.

Now, if I really wanted to get into it, I could probably point out that the project addresses a problem other than the one I faced, and my attempts to 'subvert' the project to my own ends would likely be a terrible design decision.
I wanted a file mirror... they provide file synchronization. Those are different needs, and they probably lead to different designs.

But, honestly, I am passed the issue now. I'll figure out some way to get rsync to work properly on those machines, and then be happy.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 14:31:39 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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The idea is that if everyone is a potential developer for a program,

the chances are higher that any given issue will be fixed by *someone*

with enough motivation. Multiply that times the number of programs and

the number of potential developers and you end up with a vastly
improved model for fixes and enhancements.

Yes. Sounds great. Even if it's true though, it depends on the numbers. In fleebs case, it didn't work.
If the percentage goes from 0.001 to 0.01 from paid support to get a bug fixed to open source people getting around to it, I question if all that hype is really worth anything.
I wonder if anybody's ever really done a study about such things.
Now that I think about it, I would expect decent numbers from the paid support fixes becuse they're getting paid, they have more motivation to fix i.
it.
The only motivation most open source people have is "this isn't working, can somebody PLEASE FIX IT ALREADY" and then there's the few who will actually have the time to go in and fix it, because it is hampering their personal use.
Makes one wonder. I can imagine decent sides for both arguements, I wonder which one is true.

I'd bet some loud magazine pundit could pitch that idea to MS and get them to pay a lot of money to prove it one way or the other, or in MS's case, that the MS way is better.
But even if they lie about the results, the data would have been gathered, SOMEBODY would know the actual answer.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 14:38:28 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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The argument for paid support is that with open source, you have a vastly larger number of people who you can pay to work on specific issues.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 14:38:55 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Well, there's one case where I *almost* went to the trouble to fix it, before I figured it was too much trouble.

The Bamboo Fun tablet doesn't work too well with GIMP, and I hoped to fix it (since it's an open source driver screwing it up... GIMP's driver, that is). But I couldn't figure out how to build the Windows version of the thing, so I gave up.

Which is sort of another issue with some open source projets. It has to be relatively easy to get started on compiling the stuff before you can have the greater number of people working on the thing. Because, during my off-hours, I don't really want to spend a lot of time co-ercing something into compiling.

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 19:30:26 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Mi Apr 08 2009 14:38:55 EDT von fleeb

Which is sort of another issue with some open source projets. It has to be relatively easy to get started on compiling the stuff before you can have the greater number of people working on the thing. Because, during my off-hours, I don't really want to spend a lot of time co-ercing something into compiling.

yea, same here with opensync. failed to compile it.

 

btw, you could sugest microsoft to add the features to their suitcase so it does what you want ;-P



[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 23:09:07 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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The argument for paid support is that with open source, you have a
vastly larger number of people who you can pay to work on specific
issues.

Fair enough. Does anybody actually do that though?

[#] Wed Apr 08 2009 23:10:05 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Maybe I should revisit my hatred of autoconf.
Or have they moved onto something 'better'?

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