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[#] Sat Sep 12 2009 17:15:22 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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That, and the price-gouging....

Nonsense, unless you are a freeloader with regards to the Linux community, Windows is unquestionably cheaper. If you are not a linux freeloader, you either spend some time contributing, or you throw some money in Red Hat's general direction. Red Hat = $$$. More expensive than MS for a lesser level of support. Fewer years in the official support life cycle.. and of course, if you spend time improving Linux, the time you spend on it is worth way more than you would have paid to MS. time is money.

[#] Sat Sep 12 2009 17:16:54 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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LS, it's not juts the virus scanner (I'm using AVAST); it's a bunch of

other things that just add up. Lots of Windows svchost.exe running,
lots of Google/HP crap running, bunch of other stuff....

so don't run all that crap. if you have 2 gigs utilized on an xp machine all the time, you are doing something very wrong. I'm running a 2 gig BOX and i still have enough free memory for Eclipse (which consumes anywhere from 300-900 megs) and an 800 meg virtual.

start going through programs and clicking uninstall.

[#] Sat Sep 12 2009 17:31:12 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Nonsense, unless you are a freeloader with regards to the Linux
community, Windows is unquestionably cheaper. If you are not a linux

You aren't figuring in conscientious objection to anything associated with Microsoft. For you that might be nil or close to nil, but for others, there's a real value associated with a clear conscience.

You also aren't figuring in the fact that using free Linux stuff (like CentOS) and doing your own support gets cheaper the more you do it. If you're at a company like mine where man-hours are not associated with a per hour cost (unless it's billable to a customer, our time is considered a fixed cost), the more you use it the cheaper it gets.

Are there some orgs for which tithing to Microsoft is currently cheaper than a Linux solution? Probably... but I object to the "unquestionably cheaper" assertion. There are a lot of variables ... far more variables than are included in Microsoft's periodic "TCO studies."

[#] Sat Sep 12 2009 18:57:05 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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You also aren't figuring in the fact that using free Linux stuff (like

CentOS) and doing your own support gets cheaper the more you do it. If


Using CentOS is freeloading. Of course, we're using it all over the place. But that doesn't mean it isn't freeloading.

[#] Sat Sep 12 2009 19:30:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Red Hat's official position on CentOS is that they're cool with it. They know that the ability to help yourself to existing open source software is what enabled their business in the first place. And they know that when some self-important auditor comes along and demands that you run a "supported" operating system, it's a no-brainer that you'll move to RHEL.

[#] Sun Sep 13 2009 11:38:59 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Yeah, sure, helping yourself to existing open source software is exactly what made linux possible because it increased the base of would-be developers. This is all well known and straight out of Raymond. However. It doesn't work unless a significant portion of those would-be developers decide to stop freeloading and start contributing. Which doesn't happen, unless a large percentage of them are insane. I mean think about it, you could fork over $150 or $300 or so to Microsoft. Which is CHEAP, compared to the weeks of lost manhours that you could pay when you decide to contribute to Linux just to fix a couple of small issues like sound drivers or power management.


That's the equation on a personal indivudial-user level: the economics don't add up, and your time is worth more than that. If you're a Google, maybe the economics are a little different and it's helpful to have something customizable.



[#] Sun Sep 13 2009 19:37:32 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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If you go with that logic, a big open source ecosystem and/or a 100% open source operating system cannot happen and will never happen. But it did happen.

[#] Sun Sep 13 2009 21:46:04 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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open source operating system cannot happen and will never happen. But

it did happen.

you missed the part where I worked insanity into the equation ;)

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 07:39:31 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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While your time is a fixed cost so the more work you do the cheaper linux becomes is true, most companies aren't as tech heavy as yours.

People are expensive, and it's not just salaries. Add in benefits and hr costs and you have to do a LOT of supporting to make paying a local person cheaper than paying an outside company,
And then you have the problem that you can quit at any time whereas support is continuous and isn't affected by individual staff action.
Depends on the size of your company too.
If you have a huge company, yeah, you';re going to have a big IT staff and since they're there anyway it works.
At my place we have one of the saddest things I've ever seen
They can't justify an entire salary to IT becuase our office is only 60 people or so, but they need SOMEBODY here to install software and replace machines, so they hired a guy with the role of "IT and facilities."
Yes, this highly trained IT guy has to fix computers and clean out the fridge. Fix or find the building maintenance guy to fix the toilet, make sure the cleaning staff doesn't throw out the recycling...
I know I'm a snot about this, but it seems a little degrading. I didn't go to school and bust my ass to learn really complicated shit to change toilet paper rolls.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 07:42:03 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Of course if I were hungry and needed a job I'd be happy to ask you if you wanted fries with that.
Working at the video store was one of the most mindless and relaxing jobs I've ever had.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 12:39:27 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Sep 14 2009 7:39am from Ford II @uncnsrd
While your time is a fixed cost so the more work you do the cheaper

linux becomes is true, most companies aren't as tech heavy as yours.


N.b. The more linux machines you deploy, the cheaper linux becomes. What's economical for Google to support THEIR use cases is not economical for me and mine. Because ultimately, with Linux, nobody will support your use case but YOU. Unless you pay red hat...

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 13:53:17 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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That's another thing: google, for all it's complexity does something really simple. They look up stuff in a database based on search terms.
Now obviously google does it the most complex way possible, but in trade they get speed, but the thing itself, once written is really not that complex management wise.
There's probably a farm for each of the
1) find ANYTHING with the search terms
2) find likely typos and come up with suggestions for "did you mean..."
3) find news
4) find ads
and a few other things, but really, it's not a multi-step user interactive process. Aside from the fact that they break each task up into little bits, each task isn't really that multi-step of a process.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 14:04:34 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Now obviously google does it the most complex way possible, but in
trade they get speed, but the thing itself, once written is really not

that complex management wise.

More complex then you seem to be aware - for many years, their setups were all deployed on 32-bit commodity x86 hardware, even as competitors like AltaVista were designed around 64-bit platforms like DEC Alpha and had lots of memory to work with. In order for Google to get the performance they needed and make full use of the RAM and address space, I believe they were making a number of Linux kernel customizations. Maybe this has gone away with the emergence of x86_64. I don't know.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 14:50:58 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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that's what I'm saying, their steps are implemented in a complex way, but there just aren't that many steps.

I'd certainly like to, okay, I'll admit it, I've love to sit down with a few me's at google and just listen to how they do what they do.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 19:51:14 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Everyone knows that Google's biggest customer-facing innovation was PageRank, but behind the scenes ... I think the real innovation was the way they learned how to apply supercomputing methodologies to boring tasks such as searching the web. Google's global server farm is, essentially, a supercomputer, but it's the first time someone thought to use a supercomputer to massively parallelize a knowledge management application instead of a scientific application.

MapReduce only seems "obvious" in retrospect.

[#] Mon Sep 14 2009 20:28:22 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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The other thing is that there aren't really THAT many applications for such massive parallelism.
I thought it was gung ho cool that make has a -j parameter.
But processors are so fast, that there's few things you can compile that take more than a few minutes anyway...

[#] Tue Sep 15 2009 07:53:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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"make -j" can definitely be abused to write distributed programs that have nothing to do with compiling code. Fun stuff. :)

[#] Tue Sep 15 2009 11:24:54 EDT from Nite*Star @ Uncensored

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Try BOINC -- massively parallel computing projects at home. :) http://boinc.berkeley.edu/

[#] Wed Sep 16 2009 12:34:37 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Right ... all scientific apps. Google's innovation was to apply supercomputing technology to ordinary information apps.

[#] Wed Sep 16 2009 17:54:34 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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If I have a machine from 2005 and it boots CD's in the DVD drive okay, but it won't boot DVD's is that a BIOS thing that I'm shit out of luck on?
I looked, there's no bios flash for the machine.

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