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[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 12:11:03 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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That's interesting information. Might take me a bit to digest it all, though.

[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 12:24:38 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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SSRIs result in more serotonin sitting around in the synapse and unable to be reuptaked into the axon. I've always wonderered what is the end result of this. The reuptake mechanism must be there for a reason. To store the serotonin in the location where it's actually needed.. or maybe protect it from being decomposed. If you inhibit reuptake, will this storage mechanism eventually be disrupted? Will serotonin "leak away" into locations where it is not useful, eventually resulting in less available for the brain to work with, but more of what you do have located within the synapse? seems like this would result in: constant increased receptor stimulation but reduced ability of the nerves to *control* that receptor stimulation. accounting for the feelings of hollowness and emotionlessness that some antidepressant users (particularly teenagers) have reported.

[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 13:06:19 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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MDMA sort of does the same thing - causes an initial release of serotonin from storage vesicles, where it causes a massive stimulation... and then presumably is reuptaked after the MDMA has left your system... so in principle it is not all that different from ssri's.


but the thing is, it leaves your brain feeling zapped for a few days to a week after you take it, the cause seems to be that you've depleted your brain's stock of serotonin and you need to make more. so in my mind there is a potential connection between forcing more serotonin into the synapse and the subsequent loss, misplacement, or desctruction of that serotonin.. but what do I know I'm not a biochemist ;)

[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 13:53:52 EDT from Peter Pulse @ Uncensored

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I read somewhere that MDMA may inhibit reuptake in the short term by binding to the reuptake transporters, and that is part of its action. But yea it is an interesting question.. if reuptake was completely inhibited, would the neurotransmitters just hang out in the synaptic gap forever, or would something eventually happen to them??? But I beleive that as far as what happens to the serotinin released by MDMA.. reuptake has to happen eventually, otherwise the combination of MDMA with MAOIs wouldn't be so deadly. MAO doesn't matter if reuptake doesn't happen.. does it???

[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 18:04:55 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Hmm, classic MAOI's are deadly in combination with a lot of things that you wouldn't even suspect. So I'm reluctant to speculate at all in that area.

[#] Fri Jul 25 2008 18:07:46 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Is this relationships & sex & drugs? Where's Dirk when you need him? I wonder is the "brain zap" comedown feeling on MDMA due to a very short-term downregulation or due to just depletion of the neurotransmitter supply as I think is commonly assumed. Can downregulation happen that fast?

hmm. anyway. This is why I avoid the whole issue as much as I can...

[#] Sat Jul 26 2008 15:19:32 EDT from triLcat @ Uncensored

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I currently take a tricyclic anti-depressant (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricyclic_antidepressant )

 It both helps with my migraines and keeps my from staying in bed and hoping to die for days at a time.

 

 



[#] Sat Jul 26 2008 21:13:58 EDT from davew @ Uncensored

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Me I'm with IG and Fleeb here (though they may think I'm not)

Brain drugs are about providing the brain with chemicals it would generate elsewhere for other reasons.

I'm going to take one aspect of depression as an example. This is by no means complete or scientific. Its just my un-educated opinion.

Forgive me but I think its wrong to take seratonin supplements (anti depressants) to fix being unhappy.

If it can be proven that your body is totally incapable of producing seratonin at all (or possibly in sufficient quantities) then the pills are OK.

Any one ever heard of a physical test to determine if a person is capable of producing seratonin?

Anyway, If a person is capable of producing seratonin in sufficient quantaties then they should NOT be given any drugs. They should FIX their life or attitude and be happy naturally. I defy anyone to say that fixing ones own life is not always possible. If you are unhappy with your job change it or fix your attitude. If the only options are do the job or be on the street the answer is obviously fix your attitude.

Oh yeh and rememebr an attitude problem is only a problem as long as YOU think its a problem. If others think you have an attitude problem, well frankly, thats their problem.

 



[#] Sat Jul 26 2008 21:33:48 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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There's a funny sort of thing about the brain.

It changes with every thought you have.

Sometimes, it's difficult to know when you have a problem you can correct with a lifestyle change, or you have a problem that requires some other sort of agent to help you out.

The key word there, of course, is 'requires'.  Physically, you can probably do a lot of things to your brain to get by, but you risk dependency.

Maybe it's worth it.  I don't know.

I do know that I avoided doing drugs because I'm a little hyper-careful about the idea of becoming enslaved to them, after seeing how Madam Anthrax was so taken by them.  Even as I child, I didn't like the idea of enslaving myself to a chemical if I could help it.  Although, back then, I think I would have been happy to be free of eating if I could manage it.



[#] Sat Jul 26 2008 22:32:29 EDT from davew @ Uncensored

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I suppose, having thought about it a little more, I'm a bit hypocritical in what I said.

I mean, I'm adicted to smoking and I like beer... a lot.... If the defenition of alcholism is drinking at least once a day I'm certainly not that but when I've got the time and tomorrow doesn't matter I'm very capable of making up for all the days I missed 8-)

I suppose these could be taken as two examples of drugs I use to fix my attitude / mental state from time to time



[#] Sat Jul 26 2008 23:25:59 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Oh yeh and rememebr an attitude problem is only a problem as long as YOU

think its a problem. If others think you have an attitude problem, well

frankly, thats their problem.

Brilliant! Words to live by. I'm saving that one and keeping it somewhere prominent.

[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 01:25:30 EDT from triLcat @ Uncensored

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Without medication:

I was frequently so depressed that I could not stop crying.

I thought about suicide several times a month, and made several attempts.

I had rages that were brought on by relatively minor triggers and I could not control. One such rage lost me a job.

I had so little tolerance for frustration that I would often avoid "frustrating situations" like grocery shopping, going to the doctor, and going to the bank.

I had no drive to accomplish anything, and if I managed to accomplish something, I took no pleasure in the achievement, only a slight bit of relief that "that's over!"

I was unable to accept any criticism - to the point that I was criticized at a workplace and I simply stopped showing up there.

I was unable to maintain any relationship - friendly or romantic with anyone who didn't feel required to stay with me (eg family)

----

 With medication:

I cry sometimes, when something really upsets me.

I rarely think about suicide, and haven't attempted it in over 6 years.

I can generally control my anger, and haven't had a destructive rage in over a year. I'm also able to handle frustrations with my baby without getting angry.

I've become fairly philosophical about frustrating situations, and can usually cope just fine

I still have little drive, but am able to take on short projects and feel accomplished when they are completed.

I found a job with very little opportunity for criticism... but in the jobs beforehand, I was more able to accept criticism and make changes than before.

I'm married and I have a lot of close (and not so close) friends who both provide a great support system, and look to me for support. 

 

All in all, I'd say it's worth taking a pill or two every day for the rest of my life. For the record, I spent 5 years in talk-therapy, which was extremely productive in a number of ways. Without the medication, though, it just couldn't make me have a "normal life"

 



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 07:45:21 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I was somewhat mildly depressed from some point in my childhood through my early twenties, although I didn't entirely know it (since it was all I understood).  However, my depression was getting worse as I got older.

I knew I wasn't happy.  And I knew it was getting worse... At some point in my life, I had rationally arrived at the conclusion that killing myself was a sound solution to my problems (I failed to act on that because another, more rational part of me realized that something was really fucked up if I could rationally come up with such a conclusion).  That was perhaps the scariest moment in my life.  For girthta's benefit, I'll point out that I had been working for that fucked up book-store at the time (although the book-store isn't the cause of such a feeling... I had just been building up to it for most of my life).  I think I may have been clinically depressed, but I didn't have the money to go to a doctor to check it out.  And, of course, I don't trust doctors.

I made one little change in my life to correct this, and it didn't involve drugs (although I considered it... I would have gone to a doctor for a prescription, though, just to be clear).

I decided to focus on trying to do what I could to enjoy my life.  It took me a while to get started, though, since I wasn't entirely sure what I enjoyed, and I wasn't entirely sure how to go about enjoying life... but when I started *focusing* on it, I started learning what I never learned from my childhood about who I am, what I like, and how to unfuckup myself.

I still, occasionally, get depressed for seemingly no reason, but I figure those are times when my body chemistry is a little out of whack, and just wait it out.  Mostly, though, I'm enjoying life.

So, how can you fix your fucked up life?  Well, if you're in your mid-20s or so, spend the next four to five years of your life somewhere in the North Carolina mountains.  If you're holder, you might need to spend more time there.  There's something funny about those mountains that makes you fix yourself.

You'll know when it's time to leave.  The mountains have a way of pushing you out when you're done.

[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 07:52:42 EDT from davew @ Uncensored

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I'm no expert in this subject.

I'd say that you demonstrate my point quite well.

I think I originally said that there should be a proven physical inability for the body to generate the neccessary chemicals to keep the state of mind sweet. Thinking more about it thats probably not fair since medical science is not at the level of knowing everything yet so proving that inability may not be possible.

My solution would be to have an expert examine a persons entire life in total detail and then help change that persons life and / or view on life.

This has several problems.

How can anyone be an expert in this subject? Not possible.

When an expert makes decissions for someone else then the aspect of choice is reduced if not removed. The ability to choose could be considered to be one of the most important aspects of happines which means that the experts help is not realy help at all.

Thus the subject is shown to be extremely complex.

 

Tril, I'm realy glad that medication works for you.

As it turns out my sister takes something every day to help her in a similar way. I have no idea what it is but I believe it is some herbal thing. I'm not even sure what it does for her. I didn't even know she took anything untill sprog 3 told me. I'm a realy bad bother 8-(

 

 

 



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 08:14:58 EDT from triLcat @ Uncensored

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Medication is awful - no doubt about it.

The question is how awful the alternative is.

While I greatly admire IG for avoiding medicating Iglet, I wonder if there's a point at which it crosses the line and medication is a necessity even for a child.

Is it the point when your child seriously hurts another child? Is it when your child runs into traffic and refuses to come back, and when you grab him/her, they fight you and leave black-and-blue marks? Do they have to break your bones? Their own? Suppose your child is adopted and might have been exposed to drugs/alcohol in utero?

Obviously, in most, if not all cases, your first move should be to try non-pharmaceutical therapies. But what if this is your child's situation after a 2-year regimen with a team that has an excellent track record? What if the team working with your child is anti-medication and says "I'm sorry, but this child is beyond our capabilities without medication?"

I'm the first to admit that 99% (if not more) of the kids labelled with ADHD would be better served by having 5 minutes to run around the playground each hour than by any amount of medication or even therapy. (Heck a good 50% of them would do better if they were just allowed to read in class.) But I wouldn't be quick to judge a parent who has struggled with the decision and decided to medicate either.

 



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 08:23:47 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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And, well, there you have it.

At what point does it become necessary to use medication?

That's a judgement call.



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 17:09:23 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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While I greatly admire IG for avoiding medicating Iglet, I wonder if there's a point at which it crosses the line and medication is a necessity even for a child.

If ever, it should be considered an absolute last resort.  The tendency among incompetent teachers, dishonest pediatricians, and lazy parents is to simply slap a label ("ADHD") on a child and then say "Oh look, here is a magic pill that will fix the problem without any effort on our part."

This is so far beneath contempt it should be considered child abuse.  In the IGlet's case, it started with the afforementioned incompetent teachers (who I then began referring to as Tweedle Dumbass and Tweedle Dipshit).  They just didn't grok how he's wired.  I knew something was wrong because his kindergarten teacher had no problem with him, but in first grade he "suddenly" became "ADHD."  No, you idiots, he's not ADHD, he's just H.  You don't medicate for that.  His mother took the time to locate someone to do a second-opinion evaluation, and the doctor who saw him told us that he's just got some anxiety issues.  He began occasional appointments with a therapist to work through those issues.

Not surprisingly, the "ADHD" cleared up.  Also not surprisingly, the following year, he had teachers who took the time to understand him and he absolutely thrived in second grade.

The scumbags at Big Pharma who invented ADHD can go fuck themselves.



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 17:42:23 EDT from triLcat @ Uncensored

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Completely agreed. Like I said, well over 90% of the kids labelled ADHD would be helped far more by giving them an outlet for excess energy.

My mom's a therapist. She once went to visit the classroom of a "problem kid."

45 minutes later, she returned to the parents with a diagnosis: The teacher is boring the hell out of your kid. He's so freaking bored that he'd rather get into trouble and be punished than sit through the hell that is class.

-------------------------

She had another case that was funnier... a little girl who wouldn't stay in her seat...let's call her Anne.

My Mom: Anne, do you have trouble at school?

Anne: not really.

MM: Where do you sit in the classroom?

Anne: in the back.

MM: You're not so tall. Do you see okay from the back?

Anne: well, I have to kind of move around in my seat to see.

MM: and what happens when you move around? 

Anne: I fall out of my seat.

Diagnosis: Anne is short and needs to not sit behind taller kids.

-----

One of my brother's kids has a sensory integration problem. Doing certain exercises (recommended by a PT) seems to help amazingly well.

Overall, I think MOST cases can be solved with non-pharmacological therapies, and should be, because messing with a young child's brain chemistry is very scary business. I just leave room for a very small percentage of children who really can't focus without medication, and in their case, the benefits outweigh the risks.



[#] Sun Jul 27 2008 19:57:24 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Melvin has a good story (apparently true).

One of his instructors became very concerned because Melvin no longer communicated.  She'd try to attract his attention, but he didn't seem to hear her.

Out of the kindness of her heart she paid for him to have his hearing tested.  The doctors said his hearing was just fine, not a problem in the world.

His mother asked him what was going on:

"I know you can hear just fine, so why won't you answer your teacher?"

"Because I don't like her."



[#] Mon Aug 11 2008 09:25:51 EDT from truffle @ Uncensored

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IG, so I think it's good you gave Dr Corsaro the boot. I could go on about how upset I am with his failure to diagnose Nic's issues. *sigh* but they're all better now.

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