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[#] Tue Apr 21 2015 19:16:28 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Apr 21 2015 8:03pm from LoanShark @uncnsrd
The committee has been trying to make C++ easier to use for a while



AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA HAAAA HAAAA

Yeah, it's amusing to consider a committee making anything work better.

[#] Wed Apr 22 2015 02:34:24 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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While its copying features, using it looks clearly like character soup since its bolted onto the existing syntax.

The python originals are clearly to prefer.



[#] Wed Apr 22 2015 11:37:39 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Heh, well, C++ has always been 'bolting' things onto an existing syntax, since they don't want to break existing code any more than possible.

[#] Wed Apr 22 2015 13:45:20 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Heh, well, C++ has always been 'bolting' things onto an existing
syntax, since they don't want to break existing code any more than
possible.

They break existing code all the time! Templates are the big offender. They're not simple like LISP hygeinic macros or Java generics (which are not templates at all, but do occupy a similar niche)

[#] Thu Apr 23 2015 11:27:13 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Does changes to the language break existing code, or do vendors with poor interpretations of the standard who fix thsoe interpretations lead to breaking code when programmers inadvertently program not to the standard, but to the compiler?

[#] Thu Apr 23 2015 11:59:19 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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You take some fuck, and shit shit, some fuck, and some shit you've got a fuck shit stack. A fuck shit stack.

[#] Thu Apr 23 2015 11:58:43 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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No chin, no legs. It doesn't matter, because C++ is too complex to get right. (And I don't know the actual answer to the question, but I suppose there are probably a lot of grey area that got clarified in the latest standard.)

[#] Thu Apr 23 2015 12:42:56 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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(It's just easier to write a new programming language than a new OS).

[#] Thu Apr 23 2015 12:42:41 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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C++ was intended to be C, with added features to make it more object-oriented.
It grew beyond that, I guess, as more people wanted it to handle more stuff.
Or because it was handled in a shit way, I guess.

Although, really, how else would someone have done it? It was designed the way it was because they wanted to maintain backwards compatibility. You could perhaps say that C was a shit language, and a terrible base upon which to build an oo language.

OTOH, a lot of people wrote a lot of stuff in C++ over a long period of time, and continue to do so today, despite the ridiculous learning curve and occasional updates to the standard.

If less so than before. The latest crop of software engineers prefer C# and Java from what I can see. Not C, not C++.

Anyway, I wrote what I wrote earlier because backwards compatibility was always a big deal to C++ as a language.
It just sucks that it suffers a reputation hit (to its deservedly already tarnished reputation) for compiler faults.

Heh... for a similar concept, every operating system is shit today because nobody has the guts to do it all over again from scratch and fix all the ways OSes suck.

[#] Fri Apr 24 2015 00:09:56 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Mon Apr 20 2015 12:37:49 PM EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

Nice!  Thanks dothebart.



[#] Fri Apr 24 2015 00:11:25 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Thu Apr 23 2015 11:59:19 AM EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

You take some fuck, and shit shit, some fuck, and some shit you've got a fuck shit stack. A fuck shit stack.

This is also a good take-away :-)



[#] Fri Apr 24 2015 00:58:15 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Thu Apr 23 2015 12:42:41 PM EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

C++ was intended to be C, with added features to make it more object-oriented.
It grew beyond that,...
 
...The latest crop of software engineers prefer C# and Java from what I can see. Not C, not C++.

I agree on the first point.  The second suggests that any offshoot is no based on C.  Python is itself "written in C".

I feel that C and C based languages will die off with the herd that is using them.  Popular for now, but it will fade as the new crop finds a new way forward.  I hate to think of what they give up, but then again I am just being an old fool.

The portability factor only lived on as long as someone would have the gumption to write a C compiler for the latest processor / micro.  Granted, given the ease with which we can peek at the innards / write our own compiler for the latest processor has probably passed us by, so too has the naiveté of understanding the "whole stack" of what we are doing.

I know that most of the folks on Uncensored keep up with advances in systems architecture, but how long can you do so?



[#] Mon Apr 27 2015 07:29:27 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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You take some fuck, and shit shit, some fuck, and some shit you've got

a fuck shit stack. A fuck shit stack.

Mr. Fukushita wishes to have a word with you, sir.

[#] Mon Apr 27 2015 07:28:42 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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C will eventually become (or has already become) just a language in which "system software" is written. The higher level alternatives have become so useful, and the performance penalty for running them slim enough, that writing applications in them is an obvious choice.

Even I am finding myself drawn to the "dark side." I spent a couple of months working almost exclusively in Python while building a network automation layer for a cloud product. Over this past weekend I had some time to hack on Citadel again, and I found myself frustrated having to deal with manual memory management.

However, there will always be people interested in writing system software, so C will live on. Maybe we'll even get lucky and the abomination known as C++ will die off, with system software being written in C and application software being written in higher level languages.

By the way, I don't speak for everyone (I only speak for the people who are sensible --- <grin>) but I'd *much* rather be developing in Python or JavaScript than in C# or Java.

[#] Mon Apr 27 2015 09:15:19 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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yea, java and see-carpet suck as well.

javascript is more c-ish if you do it right (use jslint and so on) then python; meanwhile I lik both of them.

whats f*'n me up is that all of them (python/js/c++) have key/value pair lists, flat lists and so on, but they're named different or even worse - with offending sense. Its a bit like Cats n Dogs tail language.



[#] Mon Apr 27 2015 09:33:44 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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C/C++ will also continue to be used for some time on software that has performance needs (gaming, in particular), and that has to work closer to the operating system for some reason (embedded, and weird stuff).

C++ isn't going to die that easily, though, since the gaming community uses it pretty heavily. It offers much of the performance of C with significantly less of the security problems.

I think the trend is growing for Java and C#, unfortunately, with Python and JavaScript being used for scripting, but kind of client-side stuff if I have it right. I've worked with both Java and C# stuff for some relatively sophisticated stuff in Linux and Windows respectively, particularly server-related programming. They make things seem easy, up until you have to get close to the operating system, then both of these are really annoying to use. At least for me.

I do like working with a decent IDE, though, I have to confess. It seriously speeds up the time it takes to write code.

[#] Mon Apr 27 2015 23:52:57 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Mon Apr 27 2015 09:15:19 AM EDTfrom dothebart @ Uncensored
...javascript is more c-ish if you do it right (use jslint and so on) then python; meanwhile I lik both of them.

whats f*'n me up is that all of them (python/js/c++) have key/value pair lists, flat lists and so on, but they're named different or even worse - with offending sense. Its a bit like Cats n Dogs tail language.

I agree.  The ability to do C and wrapper it up for speed  - as a library / library extension for C libraries - Python is a bit of a security blanket for me.  But I must admit that the key/value pairs has perplexed me as well.  I love slicing and all that, but list / dictionary / tuple etc... is a bit much to remember at my advanced age :-)  And they seem to be adding / changing language syntax at an ever increasing rate these days.  I would recommend a bit of Raymond Hettinger to figure out why they do what they do in the Python world - smart nerd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go

(skip to about 5:22 to get past the chit chat stuff.)

Watch the whole thing to get the why behind differences between the languages.  I "believe" Python has it right, but would love to hear about other languages have it more right (i.e. I don't have to twist my brain in knots to figure out what to type)...

Anyway, I like Raymond.  He makes programming fun again :-)

 



[#] Fri May 15 2015 16:08:30 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Must... draw... more... boxes and... arrows.

{*collapses in writing, drooling heap on floor*}

[#] Fri May 15 2015 16:09:05 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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^^writhing

[#] Mon Jun 01 2015 09:58:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I'm going to open a big and stupid can of worms here. But I am actually interested.

What screen width is *actually* used for programming these days?

I know the traditionalists will always say 80 columns, but really, it's hard to stay inside an 80 column screen. I have mine set to 132 columns, simply because I wanted more columns but wanted a non-arbitrary value (at least 132 is "something common")

Have most developers already thrown off the shackles of a width determined half a century ago by IBM's punch cards?

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