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[#] Thu Jun 17 2010 13:12:33 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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omg. This quote:

"Complexity kills. It sucks the life out of developers, it makes products difficult to plan, build and test, it introduces security challenges, and it causes end-user and administrator frustration."

... is from Ray Ozzie, who created LOTUS NOTES.

I really *hope* he was speaking in the "learn from my mistakes" sense.

[#] Sat Jun 19 2010 12:55:55 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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The fact that he used the phrase "introduces security challenges" instead of "introduces security problems" which is how most programmers would say it (as opposed to managers) I'm not so sure he sees it as a mistake of his.

[#] Sat Jun 19 2010 21:20:22 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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It's ironic since he seems to have a penchant for labyrinthine software. Bloated Goats is the only software package I have ever *failed* to figure out how to install and configure.

[#] Sat Jun 19 2010 21:22:44 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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that might be IBM's fault, not his. although that was before IBM bought wasn't it.

[#] Sun Jun 20 2010 09:14:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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This would have been in 1994 or thereabouts ... I don't remember exactly when IBM got involved.

I always thought it was funny that the Notes server *looked* most at home on the Netware console ... and that was one of the first platforms for which they dropped support. I enjoyed the flip-through-all-the-server-consoles of Netware.

[#] Mon Jun 21 2010 05:55:08 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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hm, appearantly gmail know how to drag & drop upload attachment via modern browsers:

http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/tip-5-things-you-may-not-know-you-can.html

probably a thing to copy?



[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 10:58:13 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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a jwzrant I must have missed: java sucks.

http://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html

[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 11:21:34 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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hm, I don't think its that new?

I think he wrote it when they tried to change parts of netscape to java ;-P



[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 11:40:28 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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That's why I said I must have missed it. It's certainly dated. Several of the things he writes about have been fixed. Closures (another thing he mentioned) are being implemented now. The major outstanding item is the lack of a numeric tower. That will probably never be implemented in Java. But it seems like he'd be really happy with Scala.

[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 14:04:35 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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At the beginning he basically declares that the fact that it's a garbage collected runtime makes up for all of the language's deficiencies. Then at the end he has a postscript which delcares that he went back to writing in C.

Now, of course, we know that he switched from writing code to selling beer.
Perhaps if we created a language called "Beer" (produced by a company whose ticker symbol will later be changed to BEER) it would encourage him to begin coding again.

[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:18:17 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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he, theres the german saying

wer nix wird wird wirt.

which states exactly that, if you don't get a descent job, you'll end up running a pub.



[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:33:22 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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At the beginning he basically declares that the fact that it's a
garbage collected runtime makes up for all of the language's
deficiencies. Then at the end he has a postscript which delcares that


Right, and in my view, this makes him a shitty programmer if he thinks being able to be an irresponsible developer is a good thing.
But that's just me.
Java has made me sloppy and it's going to hurt me in my next job.


[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:34:23 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Java. But it seems like he'd be really happy with Scala.

Which was the second thing I thought of. If he's gods gift to language design, why doesn't he write one?

Maybe this person is famous but I don't nkow him and am not impressed.

[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:39:41 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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IMNSHO his "fame" is not well-deserved.  He's a bitter, cranky loudmouth who thinks that the world should have elevated him to god status because he was a part of the early Netscape team.



[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:42:16 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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is that all he is?
the initials jwz sounded familiar but he didn't actually DO anything?



[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:50:52 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Some of thos 'flaws' are not flaws in java but flaws in him.

(I can live without long-lived closures, but I find lack of function pointers a huge pain.)

That just means you're used to C and are having a hard time getting used to java. Has nothing to do with java.

[#] Wed Jun 23 2010 15:54:20 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I miss typedef. If I have integers that represent something, I can't make type assertions about them except that they are ints. Unless I'm willing to swaddle them in blankets by wrapping Integer objects around them.

This translates roughly to "I don't want to write in an OO style in this OO language."

[#] Thu Jun 24 2010 00:15:48 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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typedef is more glaringly lacking in the post-generics Java.

[#] Thu Jun 24 2010 00:19:43 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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That just means you're used to C and are having a hard time getting

used to java. Has nothing to do with java.

Actually, jwz was a Common Lisp programmer before he worked at Netscape. Previously he was at Lucid, working on Lucid Emacs. He's one of those guys who really got hooked on LISP and is still waiting for the rest of the world to catch up--and for computers to become fast enough for LISP to work. Which they've finally done, more or less.

So, when he says "long lived closures" he actually means "I want to hide state behind this garbage collected callback object that acts like a function, pass it to somebody else who will migrate it wherever, and then forget about it"

[#] Fri Jun 25 2010 17:56:48 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Is that how LISP does it? I guess I'm not understanding this well enough because I'm imagining stuff that would be better handled by putting it on the stack.

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