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[#] Thu Jan 21 2010 00:25:48 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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But I meant the software itself, didn't somebody go after the
authors and make them stop?

Their website is still up...

[#] Thu Jan 21 2010 14:30:56 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I had a funny thought last night, haven't quite flushed it out, but it would be a good addition to one of those silly programming languages like whitespace.


java has implemets and extends and interface.
So you can tell if something is an instanceof something else.

Sorta like saying "Object x isa Integer" returns a boolean.


Well wouldn't it be funny to have a 'was' construct.
x was Integera

let me try that again.
x was [a] Integer.

Again, I haven't worked it all out, and I'm not sure exactly what it would do except have no value, but it would be funny.

[#] Thu Jan 21 2010 15:02:21 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Kind of like Intercal's COME FROM statement.

[#] Thu Jan 21 2010 18:51:27 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Well, an instance of an object that used to be type X and is now type Y? Actually some languages support that concept... I believe it's called "interface injection." http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/interface_injection_in_the_vm

[#] Thu Jan 21 2010 18:53:31 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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(ducks and runs :)

[#] Fri Jan 22 2010 07:51:33 EST from skpacman @ Uncensored

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Thu Jan 21 2010 06:53:31 PM EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

(ducks and runs :)


http://xkcd.com/541/

Reference the above link for use of emoticons inside parenthesis....



[#] Fri Jan 22 2010 14:41:35 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Kind of like Intercal's COME FROM statement.

heh, yeah.

[#] Mon Jan 25 2010 10:25:25 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

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so finaly heres the evidence. Java is an interpreted language. Downloaded:

https://cds.sun.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/CDS-CDS_Developer-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewFilteredProducts-SingleVariationTypeFilter

and it said to me during installation:

15.     Integration.

This Agreement, including any terms contained in your Entitlement, is the entire agreement between you and Sun relating to its subject mat
ter. It supersedes all prior or contemporaneous oral or written communications, proposals, representations and warranties and prevails ove
r any conflicting or additional terms of any quote, order, acknowledgment, or other communication between the parties relating to its subj
ect matter during the term of this Agreement. No modification of this Agreement will be binding, unless in writing and signed by an author
ized representative of each party.

Please contact Sun Microsystems, Inc. 4150 Network Circle, Santa Clara, California 95054 if you have questions.



Do you agree to the above license terms? [yes or no] yes


No suitable Java interpreter was detected

0) Specify a path to a Java interpreter directory.
1) Cancel this installation.
Select a choice [0-1]: 1

Gotcha bastards. its an interpreter.



[#] Mon Jan 25 2010 10:31:59 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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It's interpreting bytecode for it's virtual machine. Of course it's an interpreter.
It always has been.

[#] Mon Jan 25 2010 10:32:17 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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(Unless you're using JIT, which compiles the bytecode into binaries).

[#] Tue Jan 26 2010 17:57:03 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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these days, most "interpreters" have a JIT hidden inside, so the distinction is overblown. Even Perl does JIT.

The term I'm hearing bandied about lately is "managed language" or "managed runtime", which is sort of an umbrella term that describes the things that the .NET CLR and the JVM have in common: compilation to intermediate bytecode and garbage collection, together with (possible) JIT compilation or mixed-mode exeuction, plus bloat.

Apple's LLVM is an interesting variation on the theme, but is quite a bit closer to the metal. (No GC, I think.)


From a high-level-languages geek perspective, there is a significant list of things that .NET does better than the JVM (e.g. native tail call optimization) but that list should shrink somewhat with Java 7.

[#] Tue Jan 26 2010 22:31:43 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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OH my, java 7. Designed for Windows 7 I'm sure.
I never got why GC was such a wonderful thing, although now I realize what a sloppy programmer I've become.
I noticed the other day that I hadn't thought about what happens to all those objects I make willy nilly in a long long time.
I wonder if I'll forget to free() things if I ever write another c program ever again.

[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 12:50:28 EST from Spell Binder @ Uncensored

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Just because there's a garbage collector around doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful about allocation and deallocation of resources. A garbage collector, for example, can't release file descriptors (at least, not without some help).

I don't know if it would defeat the whole point of garbage collection, but I'd be curious if there are any environments which give the programmer some control over how and when the garbage collector runs. For example, I may have written a method that I know is going to generate a lot of temporary objects that are eventually going to get thrown away by the garbage collector, but I still have some intensive processing to do, so I don't want the garbage collector interrupting things. When everything is done, and the program is ready to go into an idle state, that would be an ideal time for the garbage collector to clean-up, and a way to invoke the garbage collector could help speed that up.
Garbage Binder

[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 15:31:37 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Binder, Java has System.gc but it is considered (a) only a suggestion that the runtime may ignore, and (b) poor form to invoke it; the garbage collector is supposed to know what to do, better than you do. For instance, invoking gc too frequently acan reduce efficiency because there is a certain amount of overhead involved in each invocation, which means there is a benefit to waiting until there is a lot of garbage and then taking it all out at once.

Also, Java implements a generational collector by default. The new generation collects recently allocated objects which are also the objects that are most likely to be short lived and freed soon. The limitations of Java syntax encourage a lof of temporary object creation.

[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 15:32:46 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I just encounted a memory leak in a Java library that I use (ActiveMQ.) Although Java collects the garbage for you, it doesn't prevent you from leaking object references into a global ArrayList. ;)

[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 16:31:25 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Mi Jan 27 2010 15:32:46 EST von LoanShark @ Uncensored

I just encounted a memory leak in a Java library that I use (ActiveMQ.) Although Java collects the garbage for you, it doesn't prevent you from leaking object references into a global ArrayList. ;)

thats my point. If I have to know how to operate the garbage collector, what is it good for then?

Though in multi threadded environments the current libc malloc doesn't behave that well.

In most cases I found its a bug anyway if de/allocation was done to frequent and could be circumvented.

and, theres ccmalloc, a malloc reimplementation by google code which seems to clean up these problems a lot.



[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 22:35:27 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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So it seems that even with garbage collection, you may still have to do the "run my program and then take a look at what's still allocated that shouldn't be" routine?

[#] Wed Jan 27 2010 22:54:02 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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well, most of the time you don't have to worry about memory leaks. except when your program is complex, highly modularized, and you're maintaining a lot of shared state with lists of other objects... oops, you let the list grow too long, you forgot to delete objects from the list when they should be deleted. java can give you a heap dump in response to an out of memory condition though, so it's a little easier to find out where the memory is going; all that runtime type information becomes actually useful.

[#] Thu Jan 28 2010 05:13:30 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

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you can also use reflection to make your program uber-modular, verry cool and slow as hell.



[#] Thu Jan 28 2010 11:10:33 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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a o p. Spring is the way to go. All that can be optimized with code generators (cglib...)

I keep my purely reflection-based stuff confined to test cases.

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