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[#] Mon Jul 06 2009 13:04:36 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Okay, putting a select on the server side to wait 500 ms is a good

Eventually you're going to end up reimplementing the Nagle algorithm.

Or you could get it for free by tunnelling a virtual network interface over it and then letting the operating system layer its own Nagle on top.

Other implementations of this seem to be fond of using SOCKS as the layer immediately above the HTTP transport, but I don't think that gives you any performance benefits other than convenience.

[#] Mon Jul 06 2009 14:27:56 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Less library my way. :-)
Although if I'm going to make an https connection, I'll have to get all that tls stuff working. :-(

I'm next going to try the citadel client, because I figure that is message based I won't notice any lag.

Any chance the cit client builds on cygwin?

[#] Mon Jul 06 2009 14:54:58 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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It definitely used to, but we haven't tried it in a while.

[#] Mon Jul 06 2009 16:14:40 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I'll give it a go.

[#] Mon Jul 06 2009 16:47:11 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I found this comment in some code here:

_alloca is vile, evil, and leaks worse than your wife's titty after she's given birth.

It... certainly stands out.

[#] Tue Jul 07 2009 07:01:45 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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So I can try waiting 500 ms and see if that helps.

Yea exactly, that character (or cursor movement or whatever) probably

works nicely. thanks.

[#] Tue Jul 07 2009 07:05:43 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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joe and bash respond within 200ms, uncensored does not. :-
But the response is still verynice.

[#] Tue Jul 07 2009 11:39:05 EDT from Peter Pulse @ Uncensored

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Cool. To answer your question from yesterday.. server push is where you don't close the http connection at the server.. you send the header and then you just keep sending data a little at a time as it becomes available. When used with a browser, there are obviously some rules that must be followed if you want the browser to for example update an image to allow you to display a live video feed from a camera (by sending a stream of jpg image frames) then you must send the right mime types (eg multipart/x-mixed-replace), and if you are trying to implement let's say a chat program then you have to send the right html to get the browser to draw .. but if you are not talking to a browser, you have a lot more lattitude. For example if you send back a document with a text/plain mime type or some kind of binary mime type, you can effectively do it forever or for a very long time, so long as you don't pause so long that something times out. The proxy has to allow it.. after all, you might just be downloading something very big on a very slow connection, it could take hours right? But the problem for CGI programs is that the server doesn't normally give you the real socket descriptor, it buffers your CGI output so that it can add its own headers (like the size header).. but you can get around this by using the nph (non-parsed header) mode.. in apache you just name your cgi program nph-mycgi.cgi and it will give you the real socket and sit back and let you do what you want. The burden is then on you to send the miniumum valid saet of http headers and not just content-type, since the server isn't helping you anymore. It isn't that hard, I have done it a bunch of times when I had CGI scripts that are doing some big long task that I wanted to follow.. like the log file output you mentioned yesterday. For example at I wrote a script that would synchronize pre-production over to production.. and this was more than a simple copying because like Harris there were replacements that had to be done, also database stuff that had to be copied. Production was in Virginia on multiple machines behind a firewall and preproduction was on one machine in my office... with an SSH pipe set up to do an Oracle db link. Anyway, not to be distracted by nostalgia.. but so anyway I wrote this web interface so that the production (html) people could choose what they wanted to put in production and then make it go over, and see as it went over any details of what was going on or going wrong.

[#] Tue Jul 07 2009 17:23:46 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Interesting. Also one of the things I want to avoid is being spotted on the web proxy.
So my connections are short and go away.
I've got the throttling thing working, and it seems you can sit at a bash prompt in ssh and send no data either way, so the poll times get farther and farther apart.
It seems citadel sends data though :-(

[#] Wed Jul 08 2009 09:51:54 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Yes, at the very least it sends a keepalive every 30 seconds. You may also find that with other protocols (telnet ssh etc) you will probably find that you're either going to see keepalives or that one end or the other sometimes drops the session for lack of them.

[#] Wed Jul 08 2009 11:46:23 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I left an ssh sitting all night, didn't send a single packet. That's the way it should be. I realize it's not realistic, but it would be nice if things just worked like that.

[#] Wed Jul 08 2009 16:35:42 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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ssh has an optional feature to send a ping so it closes on disconnects.

[#] Thu Jul 09 2009 18:07:19 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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mono seems to win over java.

I guess he makes a good point.

microsofts plan to distract developers from java finaly caught on...

the gpl'ing of java was much to late...

[#] Thu Jul 09 2009 22:17:40 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Ubuntu, a Debian-based operating system that is among the most popular desktop Linux distributions, currently packages version 3.1 of the Eclipse IDE along with MonoDevelop 2.0, the most current build. Eclipse 3.5 was released by the Eclipse Foundation on June 24, but it is not packaged by Debian.

3.1 is YEARS old, so yeah if you compare 3.1 to anything, no it doesn't have code completion, but it's THAT old
2005. So obviously a biased article, and a biased release of ubuntu?

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 02:33:44 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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no, as the article points out nobody is currently willing to take the task of upgrading the package. And since its a question of volunteers, and mod *nix-nutzes first will do apt-get install they're probably going to end up with a bad picture.

as you can see here: sid caries 3.2.2, but that seems stil to be lightyears behind.

another issue is, that java programmers don't make it easy for packagers to do that in a debian way. You can use maven, and it will fetch the universe and bolt it to your system as if you would mount your tomtom outside of your car.

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 08:27:42 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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When you have something that really wants to be its own meta-environment, you do tend to end up with integration issues like that. It's doable but it's not easy.

Of course, the reverse is true also: the "pure free" people kept talking about how both Java *and* .Net were inappropriate as the "main" managed-code runtime for an open source operating system, but the best alternative they could come up with was Python.

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 11:11:59 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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And Python sux0rs. Anyway, the Sun JVM implementation is now *fully* gpl'd and available as an "openjava" (or something like that) package in Fedora 10/11.

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 11:35:16 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Fr Jul 10 2009 11:11:59 EDT von LoanShark @ Uncensored

And Python sux0rs. Anyway, the Sun JVM implementation is now *fully* gpl'd and available as an "openjava" (or something like that) package in Fedora 10/11.

but... they're a little late to the game.

they 've missed it ... lets say by 2 years.

Microsofts aproach in destroying java by just creating something else which is "better"  did it in the end. Thats one of the core arguments out of that article (without even talking about it) if you know how Microsoft works and how their fud works.

The Icasa "they won't sue us" article is just right in time by the way.

but.. hey... have a look at the recent past...

If you fool me... shame on you. If you fool me twice, shame on me.

Unless there is a juristicaly proven certificate (or microsoft donating its patents to for example the ISO...) I won't use mono.

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 15:48:50 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Mono ought to be thought of as the .net counterpart to Wine -- simply as a way of running Windows software on Linux. Deliberately building up the .net ecosystem is stupid. (Of course, if Miguel is an MS-paid mole, as I've long been saying he is, it makes sense.)

[#] Fri Jul 10 2009 16:40:14 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Monochrome, by contrast, ought to be thought of as Aahz's boss.

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