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[#] Fri Jul 30 2010 14:41:40 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Once again you are falling into the trap of thinking of "Linux" as a single product controlled by a single entity.

One linux-based product is already poised to overtake Apple. Android, which is a linux-based software stack, is growing fast. By some measures it has already overtaken the iPhone; by most other measures it will overtake iPhone sometime in 2011 or 2012 ... for the same reason Windows 3.1 dominated over Apple when PC's first arrived on the scene.

Your initial point is correct, though. People don't *want* their mobile devices to look or quack like desktop computers. Keeping the environment fairly rigid is important for a low-power portable device -- Palm figured that out a very long time ago.

By the way ... Apple did the Linux world a big favor. Desktop linux systems have had online software repositories for a long time, but Windows users were accustomed to "put in the CD and run SETUP.EXE". Now, thanks to Apple, people are totally aware of how an "app store" works.

As a result, the argument of "oh, to use Linux you have to learn how to compile software from source code" (which is of course a myth, or FUD if you prefer) is now easily refuted. If the Linux in question is Ubuntu, for example, you can just say "No, it has an app store. Here it is. See?"

[#] Fri Jul 30 2010 15:38:48 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Your initial point is correct, though. People don't *want* their
mobile devices to look or quack like desktop computers. Keeping the

My point is most people don't want their desktop computers to look or quack like desktop computers either.

[#] Sat Jul 31 2010 21:55:20 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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now THAT would be a sight.

They kaboshed their flight simulator dept, no? They could have sold that.

[#] Sun Aug 01 2010 10:01:55 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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At the moment they still bring in enough cash from Windows and Office that they can continue to fund everything else. On the other hand, it is known that they play games with the way they state their revenue so that they can show the illusion of constant revenue growth from quarter to quarter. Once they decline enough that they can no longer play that game, it will have a significant effect on their stock price, which in their world is far more important than software.

[#] Tue Aug 03 2010 14:40:03 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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What I keep hearing about .Net is that C# is an elegant language, but

the .Net runtime is typical Microsoft rubbish (basically a GC'ed
version of Win32).

Wondering where you're hearing that, aside from your usual anti-Miguel sources. .NET's runtime is also quite elegant and has a few key efficiency features that are missing from Java's overly-simplistic memory model: value types, and reified generics. The importance of reified generics can't be overstated; it really cuts down on runtime memory overhead by a significant factor by allowing value types and primitives to be stored inline.

Some of the libraries are also quite nice. IEnumerable/IQueryable are serious functional-programming heavyweights.

[#] Wed Aug 04 2010 21:40:59 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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memory model: value types, and reified generics. The importance of
reified generics can't be overstated; it really cuts down on runtime

erm... I do so enjoy reading up on all this stuff you throw our way, that's my new way of keeping up with my resume acronyms, but having read exactly 2 paragraphs on the subject I am now an authority, so let's debate for a minute exactly why C#'s way is better.
I mean from a design point of view, sure it's better that it's part of the entire system design and not just a language feature, but if I'm reading it right, java throws out all the generic type stuff (which is fine by me) and doesn't put it in the byte code and C# does.
So C# has to spend more time dealing with generic types at runtime.
How is this better? (you know me, it's all about performance)
I'm probably not getting the whole picture, but if all generic goofyness for a type simplifies to the same thing in java, and doesn't in C# doesn't that just make C# code more bloaty while functionally doing the same thing?
If the compiler has verified that everything is type safe, why waste runtime cpu dealing with it at all?

[#] Thu Aug 05 2010 02:39:04 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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I remember the see-carpet pet-shop being 1/3rd loc of the java petshop.



[#] Thu Aug 05 2010 19:08:09 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Java generics can generalize over object types, only. They can't generalize over primitives (they handle that case by autoboxing primitives to objects) and they can't generalize over value types, because java doesn't have value types.

So in Java, you can never define a "struct foo" and an array of struct foo, and have that array be stored as a linear list of struct foos all inline, it has to be an array of pointers to object foo instead. My understanding is that C# can do that... and the collection classes can also do this in a generic fashion. The memory overhead can be a rather large constant multiplier. Collection traversal is also quite a bit slower..


So, C# can do this because it preserves the type information at runtime, which allows it to basically treat generic classes as templates if it decides that it's necessary.

[#] Thu Aug 05 2010 19:08:31 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Aug 5 2010 2:39am from dothebart @uncnsrd
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I remember the see-carpet pet-shop being 1/3rd loc of the java
petshop.


probably mostly because of properties vs setters/getters.

[#] Fri Aug 06 2010 11:18:41 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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So, C# can do this because it preserves the type information at
runtime, which allows it to basically treat generic classes as
templates if it decides that it's necessary.

C# can do that as a result of the fact that java doesn't have value types. Forget the generics for a second, I gather C# can also line up an array of whatever objects in memory, and java can't simply because java was not designed to allow for that. The generics just make doing that with random types possible, but the actual flaw (limitation whatever) is in the everything-is-an-object-except-for-the-primitive-types-hack design of java.

[#] Fri Aug 06 2010 16:14:51 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I think the primitive types should be objects, and the syntax should be simple enough that you can use objects like you can use primitives so that you won't need a separate hack for primitives just to make the language usable.

[#] Fri Aug 06 2010 16:15:15 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Heh, I suppose you could do that with operator overloading. :-)))

[#] Fri Aug 06 2010 16:38:09 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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That's the way Scala does it, on both counts.

[#] Sun Aug 08 2010 15:58:26 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Without having 2 paragraphs to read, is scala's syntax easy?
Oh, but it's a sloppy language right? not big on types?

[#] Mon Aug 09 2010 18:03:30 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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The syntax will probably take some getting used to. The fundamental idea is: (a) every construct should be as general as possible; (b) everything is an expression.

(a) requires some meditation and long explanation, but
(b) allows you to do things like this:


val myvariable =
if (something) then
1
else
2

or even:

val transformedList =
for (x <- someOtherList)
yield x.someProperty

It's not a sloppy language, it's a strong/static type system that closely resembles Java's, with a few differences. They have added a form of structural typing (aka duck typing) for classes that is statically checked at compile time. In other words, you can declare "this parameter accepts any object that defines fields named x and y", and this will be statically checked at compile time (not to be confused with Objective-C/Smalltalk like systems where all such checking is at runtime.)

Function types are also structural types (as opposed to nominal types as in C# with its delegate types.) Function types don't have names, they just declare a matching signature, and are statically type checked.

You might look at "val myvariable" above and think "that looks like a sloppy language." But behind the scenes, the compiler knows the type of "myvariable" at compile time, via type inference. (There are several situations where you must declare the type when the compiler can't figure it out on its own.)

The IDE has a mouse hover to indicate the type of a variable.

[#] Mon Aug 09 2010 21:16:18 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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You might look at "val myvariable" above and think "that looks like a

sloppy language." But behind the scenes, the compiler knows the type of

"myvariable" at compile time, via type inference. (There are several

That's fair. As long as that's what actually happening, and later in the function the compiler can bitch when you assign something of the wrong type to it. I'm not such a nazi that everything has to be spelled out, just that the Right Thing is going on in the Right Places.

[#] Thu Aug 26 2010 14:07:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Doesn't XP use NTFS? Does NTFS still maintain 8.3 filenames somewhere for some weird level of compatibility?

[#] Thu Aug 26 2010 15:43:16 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I thought that went out with 95/me.
I haven't seen a 8.3 compatible filename in years.

[#] Thu Aug 26 2010 15:58:34 EDT from Freakdog @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Thu Aug 26 2010 03:43:16 PM EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored Subject: Re:
I thought that went out with 95/me.
I haven't seen a 8.3 compatible filename in years.

You haven't used a program that doesn't understand long filenames, then.

I still see the occasional "FILENA~1.TXT" or some such.



[#] Thu Aug 26 2010 16:06:36 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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NTFS supports long and short filenames, yes.   XP can also use FAT-32 if it must.

Microsoft Installer file are fun because of this long/short filename nonsense.



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