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[#] Thu Nov 01 2012 09:21:54 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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Last thursday, a system which I succesfully pulles through two distupgrades fubar'ed itself after a reboot. After the third distupgrades some month ago I maybe forgot a reboot, I am not sure. But there were bind9 and isc-dhcp in the default rc, which I definetly disabled in favour of dnsmasq. I am pretty sure I even removed them from the system a year ago. Anyway, samba simply wouldn't resume normal operations and so I retired the system and switched to RHEL based ClearOS for that server. And it is a joy, only vpn needed some manual intervention, samba+openldap worked right out of the box.

I also learned that using nfs to serve data to a vm which then offers this data as samba shares is a bit of a PITA, but solvable.



[#] Thu Nov 01 2012 15:03:47 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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What doesn't work in Fedora?

My mouse curser will disapear in applications such as Xsane and others.
I don't remember the name of the program but it allows me to right click on a file and resize it. That disapeared from the
menu.
Other odd things.

Xubuntu: I was going to go with that as I am very disapointed with Gnome 3.x and unity.

Debian: Why so many damn CDs? Ubuntu was nice, one CD. Or I could download something to a bootable USB stick.

SUSE: Tried it many years ago, but I believe it was the KDE install. Didn't like it.


As much as I want to grow up out of Ubuntu I probably will go back to it. The Xubuntu flavor as I like Xfce and I am very
disapointed with Gnome 3.x and unity.

[#] Thu Nov 01 2012 16:19:47 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Thu Nov 01 2012 15:03:47 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

Debian: Why so many damn CDs? Ubuntu was nice, one CD. Or I could download something to a bootable USB stick.

whut? why any cds?

boot the debian netinst iso, and apt will pull all the rest from the net directly.

 



[#] Fri Nov 02 2012 08:38:19 EDT from Freakdog @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Wed Oct 31 2012 11:40:54 PM UTC from the_mgt @ Uncensored

Thats the thing I never understood about debian. Nobody uses stable because it is from the stone age. If I want "stable and tested" on a production server, I go to centos or another RHEL derivate,  becaue of the longer support time for example.

+1



[#] Sat Nov 03 2012 13:09:37 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Finding, reporting, and fixing bugs

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Thu Nov 01 2012 03:03:47 PM EDT from zooer @ Uncensored
What doesn't work in Fedora?
My mouse curser will disapear in applications such as Xsane and others.
I don't remember the name of the program but it allows me to right click on a file and resize it. That disapeared from the
menu.
Other odd things.


Did you look for existing bug reports on the issue(s) and join in if they existed... or if not, file a new bug report?  That's what I do.  With tens of thousands of software packages there are going to be hundreds of thousands (or more) bugs.  Switching distros because you ran into a bug is futile even with the large number of distros we have.

When you say right-click on a file and resize it, what does that mean?  Are you resizing graphic files?  If some piece of functionality is missing, perhaps an additional package or two needs to be installed.

-- 
TYL,
Scott Dowdle - Belgrade, Montana



[#] Sat Nov 03 2012 13:45:34 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Live media vs. install media vs. netinstall

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Thu Nov 01 2012 03:03:47 PM EDT from zooer @ Uncensored
Debian: Why so many damn CDs? Ubuntu was nice, one CD. Or I could download something to a bootable USB stick.

SUSE: Tried it many years ago, but I believe it was the KDE install. Didn't like it.

The single-cd model that was popularized by Ubuntu really has dumbed down everyone.  The whole seperate single-cd for each desktop environment seems to have lead people to believe that if they want a certain desktop or a certain set of applications their single-cd builds contain... that they have to download and install from that CD.  In reality a typical distro (that is binary package-based anyway) has one or more software repositories with tens of thousands of packages in it.  If you installed from a single CD and it only has desktop XYZ but you want apps from another desktop... or you'd like to install desktop ABC, just use your package manager.

I don't know if graphical package managers are good at showing meta packages but from the command line it is easy.  What is a "meta" package?  It is a package that is a placeholder for a lot of other packages.  So for example, in Fedora (and this applies to Debian and Ubuntu and a lot of other distros too) if I'm on a system that has GNOME 3 but I'd also like to have KDE, I can just run yum with the needed privledges to install KDE as well:

yum install @kde-desktop

or

yum groupinstall "KDE Plasma Workspaces"

That latter one is from a pre-release Fedora 18 system and I think Fedora has been altering the names some so it is worthwhile to get a list of what groups are available by running:

yum grouplist

If the group name has spaces in it, you need to put them in quotes like I did above.

The Fedora remix I make each release includes GNOME 3, KDE, LXDE, XFCE... and now with Fedora 18... MATE and CINNAMON... as well as openbox, blackbox.. and a handful of other window managers... and a lot of desktop and command line applications.  It's about 6.3GB of software compressed down (with xz) to a 2GB iso that fits on most 2GB USB thumb drives.  It works like a LiveDVD and is installable.  From the graphical login manager just pick what desktop environment you want to use at login time.  Want to swtich, just logout and login again picking the desired session.

To address your comment on why Debian has so many CDs... it is because they provide media for all of their packages... spread across a large number of CDs.  Since they have so much software, just taking a look at the current release, it looks like that is 53 CDs.  If you want DVDs, it's 8 DVDs.  Of course that varies release to release.  Do you need to download all of those?  Of course not.  The way they allocate the packages across the CDs, the most popular packages start on CD1 and the very lesser popular packages would be on later discs... going from most popular to least popular.  If you just want the default desktop environment with the basic set of applications, CD1 will probably be all you need.  Like others have said, if you just want a small download the netinstall disc is the way to do because it just has the installer and lets you get all of the packages online during the install... so you only end up downloading what you install.

To address you comment about SUSE... like most other distros, they offer all of the desktop environments.  I think their preferred default is KDE but that doesn't mean if you use SUSE you have to use KDE.  Just install whatever you want and use it.  If KDE gets there by default from the install media and you want to free up some disk space because you aren't going to use it, you can probably remove it with the package manager.  That isn't something I've tried.

In the history of Linux, Live media is relatively new.  Before live media you used to have to download a series of 1 or more install CDs (very early on it was floppy discs rather than optical media) and boot from CD1 to get the installer... from which you'd pick the packages (or groups of packages) you wanted to install... then it'd install those along with dependencies... and ask you to put in the needed CD that contained the packages.  The end result was you could pick what you wanted and get that.  That sort of tradition has continued with the netinstall media and any install-only (aka non-live) media provided by distros.  Fedora offers both as does Debian.  Ubuntu does also with their DVDs I think but I haven't used one of those in a long time so I'm not certain.

I think Ubuntu has muddied the water some because their various spin makers do more customizations and as a result installing multiple desktop environments on Ubuntu might lead to the display manger changing to whatever the last one installed perfers... or changing an underlying theme used... so your milage may vary.

-- 
TYL,
Scott Dowdle - Belgrade, Montana



[#] Sun Nov 04 2012 18:01:58 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Debian ought to rename their repositories.  "stable" should be called something related to long term support, and "testing" should be called "current" or something like that.



[#] Sun Nov 04 2012 19:14:33 EST from zooer @ Uncensored

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I am not sure if I ever found the latest Debian or not. I know it took me a while to locate the "testing" section. feh.

[#] Tue Nov 06 2012 10:55:13 EST from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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I wholeheartedly agree with Scott and dothebart. Since  about ten years I am only using netinstall CDs, the last install I made with the traditional many cds approach was SuSE 7 or 8. They basically could have been what Ubuntu is now, if they hadn't fecked up in between and had a better PR department.

I quit SuSE only because it was that type of "Nanny distro" that Ubuntu is now: If you made manual changes and used Yast to configure your system, Yast always killed your changes (in dhcp and samba for example). So I left and changed to Gentoo. There were other reasons too, but they are boring geek stuff.

Anyway, today, if you have a decent bandwith (and I would count  ISDN as decent enough) I would go with the net install. Choose a distro based on the following criteria, in that order:

  1. Management tools for the services you run and packagemanagement. At least on a Desktop, most of the time "Out of the Box" or "as is" suites your needs. If you run a server and are mostly clueless, try ClearOS or Zentyal or some other Linux "Small Business Server" with a gui.
  2. Software you need (include 3rd party repos in your search!)
  3. Hardware support (if there are any real differences today.) Does only really matter if you have quiet recent or special hardware.
  4. The Desktop look and feel. As said earlier, most distros include all of the popular ones and some odd and nerdy ones. On my last SuSE install, I first used WindowMaker and then enlightenment16 because my hardware didn't agree with KDE.

Switching distros because something minor (and I include the desktop environment here) doesn't really suite you is probably waste of time. The hard tools you use to manage your daily tasks are what counts. So the package manager and the provided software packages are probably more important than interchangeable UIs.



[#] Sat Nov 10 2012 13:17:15 EST from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: MontanaLinux F18 Remix progress?

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A lot has been written about the delays in the upcoming Fedora 18.  They decided to completely redo the installer and are working on an offline updated (ironically named fedup).  I don't mind the delays.  I'd really dislike if they rushed it and released it before it is ready.  In any event, I've been working on my remix and it is actually looking quite good.  I made a 9 minute video that shows the install, first boot, and couple of the newer desktops and apps.  If interested, you can find it here:

http://www.montanalinux.org/video-montanalinux-f18-beta-boot-install-run.html

-- 
TYL,
Scott Dowdle - Belgrade, Montana



[#] Fri Nov 16 2012 08:41:09 EST from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Using a local USB webcam with a remote KVM virtual machine?

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Greetings,

I wrote a blog post the other day in which I detailed the scenerio where someone gave me a hand-me-down webmcam that was a few years old... and since it just worked in Linux... I wondered if I could make it work in a remote KVM virtual machine too... since KVM and the SPICE protocol do support USB.  For more info see:

http://www.montanalinux.org/video-usb-webcam-inside-kvm-vm-2012112.html

-- 
TYL, Scott Dowdle - Belgrade, Montana



[#] Tue Nov 27 2012 15:13:13 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Quote of the day

"Software is a service, but you should expect to do some work making money from it. Creating software is not a license to print money. Software is an expression of ideas common to all people: arithmetic, logic, movement. It's not magic, and no one owns ideas." -- Robert Pogson

(you can agree with this or you can be wrong!)

[#] Wed Nov 28 2012 06:47:08 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Over the weekend I ran updates on a computer I haven't touched since 2009 (it's more than a hundred miles away). It's running the LTS versions of Ubuntu.
I had to upgrade it twice, once to the 2010 version and again to the 2012 version.

The question of course arose as to whether this user would tolerate Unity.
I didn't have the time to reload the machine with Debian. As it turns out, spaceman mark actually had some quiet sensibility knocked into him -- it's now officially supported that you can do "apt-get install gnome-panel" to get the classic desktop, just like you do on Debian if you don't want gnome shell.

Spaceman Mark was very abusive towards users who rejected Unity (nearly all of us). I guess a big paying customer finally complained.

[#] Wed Nov 28 2012 09:23:40 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Like. Unity is to Ubuntu as the Start Screen is to Windows 8: a third trimester abortion--not nearly a third trimester abortion of a viable-but-premature fetus, as that would imply that this technology is viable, but a bloody mess nonetheless.....

[#] Wed Nov 28 2012 09:24:41 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Nice to be able to look at Microsoft and say, "You didn't build that", though -- spaceMark did. ;););)

[#] Wed Nov 28 2012 19:41:12 EST from zooer @ Uncensored

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Using Mint and the citadel-client. Mint seems nice, boots quickly. Still have to get all my regular programs installed and make links to my /home directory/zooer directory.

[#] Wed Nov 28 2012 21:05:32 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Predictably, the ubuntools are saying "it's been there all along" but they fail to admit that until 12.04 it was called "fallback" and very clearly deprecated and scheduled for eventual removal.

The alternative theory to a big paying customer complaining, might be that SpaceMark saw that Ubuntu really was plummeting in popularity and he made a commitment to continue offering gnome-panel out of sheer necessity. He's bullheaded but he's not stupid.

[#] Thu Nov 29 2012 14:10:27 EST from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Switching from Unity on Ubuntu to something else?

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Iggie,

So HOW was that done exactly?  I tried to verify what you said by doing a fresh install of Ubuntu 12.10, getting it fully updated and then I installed gnome-panel and rebooted.  Then I logged in again and I got Unity still... or at least it looked exactly like Unity.  I didn't stay there long.

I logged out and looked at the login screen to see if there might be something related to session selection to pick something other than Unity but I didn't see anything... so HOW EXACTLY did you switch from Unity to something else... and what exactly was that something else?

-- 
TYL,
Scott Dowdle - Belgrade, Montana



[#] Fri Nov 30 2012 19:32:02 EST from zooer @ Uncensored

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Gnat posted a message a few weeks ago about gnome classic or installing gnome-fallback but I don't remember the
package or where the message was. What is the package to install the classic gnome or gnome2?

I am using mint and xfce, it had a "gnome classic" in the session menu but the desktop was unpleasant and I
figured it was missing some files.

[#] Sun Dec 02 2012 19:53:48 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Switching from Unity on Ubuntu to something else?

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The system I ran it on was upgraded from ubuntu 9, so I don't know whether there's anything special. However, from the web pages I read, it should just be "apt-get install gnome-panel". It used to be called "gnome-session-fallback" but I believe that package name is deprecated.

Anyway, to get that desktop, I simply selected it at the login screen.

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