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[#] Sun Jul 24 2011 12:21:13 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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yea, realy loved that.



[#] Sun Jul 24 2011 12:58:01 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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DR-DOS) in 1997, they had the intention of using GEM as a platform for

mobile computers and thin clients.

Might have been plausible if they'd really hacked on it hard for a number of years and with a lot of foresight... but Android and iOS have that sewn up right now... and with that DOS kernel, you really have to wonder how well it would have worked...

[#] Sun Jul 24 2011 13:20:29 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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geos was also set to fill this gap and failed.



[#] Sun Jul 24 2011 13:33:38 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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The same could have been said about 16-bit Windows, but I guess in that case you need to have a nascent market and a megalomaniac monopolist to pull off that strategy.

I think it's just nostalgia at this point. Kind of like all those people who still want to petition IBM to release the source code to OS/2's WorkPlace Shell so that it can become The Next Great Desktop (tm).

And now the GNOME and KDE people are fighting over who gets to use the words "System Settings" in their desktop. Personally I think that this isn't actually happening, but instead, secret agents from Slashdot have infiltrated both camps in order to stoke the flame wars.

[#] Sun Jul 24 2011 20:49:41 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I think it's just nostalgia at this point. Kind of like all those
people who still want to petition IBM to release the source code to
OS/2's WorkPlace Shell so that it can become The Next Great Desktop
(tm).

Well they can't, or at least shouldn't. OS/2 was spun off/sold to another business which is still selling & supporting the product. The code might no longer be IBM's to release.

[#] Mon Jul 25 2011 02:31:49 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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So Jul 24 2011 20:49:41 EDT von LoanShark @ Uncensored
I think it's just nostalgia at this point. Kind of like all those
people who still want to petition IBM to release the source code to
OS/2's WorkPlace Shell so that it can become The Next Great Desktop
(tm).
Well they can't, or at least shouldn't. OS/2 was spun off/sold to another business which is still selling & supporting the product. The code might no longer be IBM's to release.

yes, it is. but I wouldn't think that the WPS is their primary featureset; since most customers are using their os/2 computers in automatons having their own UI, or as sort of a "thin client" to run RDP/X11/3270/... applications.

but due to that they probably just got a license, not all rights, its hard for both of them to release the source...

as for the kernel, its probably got lots of additions from Aix, which also makes copyright a problem.



[#] Tue Jul 26 2011 16:38:27 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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migrated our last remaining CentOS instance to Ubuntu today. Kind of sad because it's a superior OS to Ubuntu in most respects that matter, it's just not nearly as well-packaged To The Cloud(tm)(barf).


I expect this will change when CentOS 6 gets nice supported PV-GRUB images built, but that doesn't help us **now**.

[#] Tue Jul 26 2011 17:31:14 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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That's been my primary complaint in recent times ... there's so much in the default build which you have to turn off, particularly if you're installing to a virtual machine. pcscd? Seriously? Does anyone still use those cards?
And then of course they pre-install the "make everything broken by default"
package, also known as SElinux.

I'm sure that most shops will build and use a clonable image for deployment to Teh Cloud (private or public) and we do that too, but it's still a hassle.

I do like the Ubuntu/Debian practice of not enabling much of anything in the default server installation. Although not even enabling the SSH server might be a bit *too* conservative -- they should at least ask about that during the setup.

[#] Tue Jul 26 2011 17:42:09 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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well, found one of these centos VMs running a deamon of 200MB ram just polling for UPDATES?

ain't that a job for cron?

and... I realy dislike exim being the default MTA, and that you needed to know a litte deb-foo to replace it with msmtp

but...

dpkg --set-selections is a real cool feature.



[#] Tue Jul 26 2011 18:18:37 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I'm sure that most shops will build and use a clonable image for
deployment to Teh Cloud (private or public) and we do that too, but
it's still a hassle.

Well you shouldn't have to do this. Distributors should package a sensible image for you, with all that physical-machine stuff turned off, ssh turned on and just about nothing else.

And our management tools provider (RightScale) does this. The images they provide are everything you want in most respects, and you can get started quickly with building install scripts to layer your own stuff on top of the image. All well and good.

The only problem is this one little niggling pesky detail - the images aren't PV-GRUB based, so you can't upgrade the kernel without rebuilding the image. If the images were just PV-GRUB based, we'd be able to do "yum update kernel-xen && reboot", or incantations to that effect.
Since I refuse to fall into the trap of maintaining our own images, Ubuntu it is. I might have stuck with CentOS and bit the bullet and built an image, if 99% of our servers weren't on Ubuntu already before I started working here...

[#] Wed Jul 27 2011 14:20:04 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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waitwaitwhat ... you're running Xen with the guests in para mode? Is that still something that's done? I thought the generally accepted practice nowadays was to either use the stock kernel with paravirtualized disk and network, or to run containers.

[#] Wed Jul 27 2011 15:01:03 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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PVM guests account for the vast majority of Amazon EC2 deployments. Amazon requires HVM guests on their Cluster Compute and Cluster GPU instance types. All other instance types have historically used PVM-based images, and that might be the only type still supported.

That said, it's reportedly feasible (except that nobody I know of has worked out all the details yet) to boot other OS's, such as FreeBSD, using PV-GRUB; I assume this would require FreeBSD support paravirt_ops.

[#] Wed Jul 27 2011 16:05:29 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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FreeBSD on Amazon, limited support: http://www.daemonology.net/freebsd-on-ec2/



[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 10:35:57 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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How do I tell whether my EC2 guest is a PVM? uname doesn't seem to offer any clues.

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 11:07:18 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Every AMI is flagged with a virt type, PVM or HVM. Also, if you launched with any AKI other than one of the PV-GRUB AKI's, you're definitely using PVM. If you're using PV-GRUB, it depends on how your kernel was built. pv-grub should be able to chain into any kernel that supports either the Xen 3.0.2 interface or paravirt_ops.

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 11:21:15 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I suspect that the only
EC2 instance types that support HVM are:

* MS Windows instance types. (which are always more expensive than the corresponding Linux instance types.)
* Cluster Compute and Cluster GPU instance types.

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 20:53:20 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Oh and of course if any program is not tracked properly by upstart,
the bug is declared to exist within *that program*, and it must find a

way to issue syscalls that upstart can grok.

you're starting to sound like me. :-) Good man.

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 21:00:28 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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relogin again. Of course, progress is good and variety too, but why
do they need to become ever shittier?

You're starting to sound like me too! :-)

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 21:05:09 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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So, I've been putting-off updating my Ubuntu10.10 systems to 11.04
because last time I tried, it screwed up xorg and nvidia horribly. I
don't want to nuke my system and do a fresh install of 11.04, nor do
I want to lose my gfx drivers and have to do back-handed ways to get
them back.

Anyone have advice?

I'm in exactly the same boat. Every time I upgrade I waste hours fixing things.
So now what I do is this: every time I start a shell and says something about 'natty' (took me a while to figure out what that even was)... This is what I do: I IGNORE IT.

[#] Thu Jul 28 2011 21:06:08 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I don't really like the Unity desktop, so I logged out and chose the
"Ubuntu Classic" session at the bottom during login.

I've heard enough things about gnome 3 (I gather that's what unity is?) that I fear upgrading. I'm tired of asking to have my machine broken and made worse.

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