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[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 17:12:09 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Oh and of course if any program is not tracked properly by upstart, the bug is declared to exist within *that program*, and it must find a way to issue syscalls that upstart can grok. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssh/+bug/687535

[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 17:11:03 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Ubuntu pet peeve #345: Upstart init.

Holy crap this program was a stupid idea... they wrote a new version of init that integrates with "service" and handles reloads etc. I think the idea was to improve boot time by making init track the still-booting/quiesced state of all services. Unfortunately to do this INIT RUNS ALL PROCESSES UNDER PTRACE. They're basically writing an AI routine to guess what all those syscalls mean! So inevitably it makes the wrong call and "loses track" of your service, and since it's all integrated with the init scripts, you can't stop/reload a service other than with KILL.

This is also the only original contribution to the Linux community that Canonical, Ltd has ever made.

[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 18:15:38 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Nope ... they rewrote it in Perl :)

[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 17:51:45 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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If they were going to build a pattern-recognizer over system calls, they should have done it the right way and written a DFA engine.

;)

[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 18:04:54 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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you might have seen the discussion in citadel support lately; debootstrap is the way to start; dunno which way dab works in here; hopefully just wrapping existing tools.



[#] Mon Jul 18 2011 17:48:39 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Yeah, I'm not all that thrilled with upstart either, but it was mainly because I always enjoyed being able to add my own "services" directly to /etc/inittab with the added-uber-bonus that they'd restart automatically if the process exited for whatever reason.

And the exit is tracked with a simple waitpid() instead of ptrace. Imagine that.

[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 13:41:51 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Speaking of original contributions to the Linux community ... after a couple of months of trying it out, I've ditched Unity on my desktop at work and I will probably ditch it at home too. Since our friends at Canonical have already announced their intention to discontinue availability of the classic GNOME desktop as an option, I decided to give Xfce a try.

Xfce 4.8 is a *vast* improvement over its earlier versions. Lightweight and snappy, it doesn't seem to want to pursue the same track of douchebaggery that everyone else seems to want. I was able to quickly and easily configure it as a classic panel-on-the-bottom (some might say "Windows 95 style") desktop.
You know, like one would expect on a *computer* .

sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 14:02:39 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Not to be a negative jerk or anything, but Yet Another Desktop Environment doesn't automatically equal original contribution in my book. I mean I'd be perfectly happy running a stripped fvwm1 and rxvt, as provided in the original TinyX distribution which ran (barely) on a 4MB 486sx... and this thread should perhaps have been started in a Bashing room. :)

[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 16:10:40 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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And what exactly is wrong with being a negative jerk? I am one myself.

<< big stupid grin >>

Actually I think that Canonical's contribution to Linux hasn't been in the form of a lot of original software packages -- what they have done successfully is to build a Linux distribution that is well tuned enough that it really did encourage a lot of new users to try it. It's well integrated, it's documentedm, and it's supported. We nerds aren't quick to see the value in that but it is there.

But I still don't like Unity.

Canonical's efforts to create new software are about as likely to be useful as Microsoft's efforts to create a search engine that doesn't suck. It's not something they do well. They should stick to spit and polish, which is what they are good at.

[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 16:57:05 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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well, there is just another... lxde...



[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 19:45:41 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html Is another approach and has some critical points in the "On Upstart" section. Personally, I hate all these "let's reimplement everything differently, at least in two versions, deprecate it a year later when everybody uses it, announce something new and deprecate that even before it is released" projects. Especially I hate booting. I don't boot, since I don't see thee point of it. There is suspend. Until there is a newer kernel, then you can reboot, and it doesn't matter if it takes 5 or 5,5seconds or even 3 minutes, since you should do it once a day. (Ok, if you multiboot, think about virtualisation or a second machine, if you really really rely on it ;)

On the fat desktop environments, I never got the hang of them and they are directly connected to these crappy reimplementation projects. I started my linux experience with Windowmaker. I never liked taskbars or the start menu concept. From Windowaker I switched to Enlightenment16 and since 5 years I only use e17 with some cherry picked things from gnome. I avoid KDE stuff like the plague. So now since HAL is deprecated it is complete madness to get such a simple thing as auto mounting usb sticks going. I needed to create two config files for consolekit, edit a pam config, startx with ck-session-launcher and there were other obscure and unholy things involved. Still it breaks every now and then, so I need to completely relogin again. Of course, progress is good and variety too, but why do they need to become ever shittier?



[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 21:29:38 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Personally, I
hate all these "let's reimplement everything differently, at least in
two versions, deprecate it a year later when everybody uses it,
announce something new and deprecate that even before it is released" projects.


Needed to be said again

[#] Tue Jul 19 2011 21:36:49 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Ok, if CentOS 6 has also picked up Upstart, I guess we're stuck with it then. Which means routing around its foibles. I had to do a global search/replace on my sshd-releated init scripts on our Ubuntu hosts to change "service ssh reload" to "kill -HUP `cat /var/run/sshd.pid`". And since RightScale doesn't actually have a global search/replace, I didn't do it. ;) So we may be playing whack-a-mole with that one for a while, here.

Hopefully CentOS was a little more enlightened and didn't make all their reload scripts directly depend on init; it doesn't seem necessary. In particular, I think OpenSSH upstream will never accept a patch to eliminate the extra fork() call; they're depending on it for the randomized PID.

[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 09:56:38 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Wait a minute, HAL is deprecated? Why? What are they replacing it with?

[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 10:47:18 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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dbus?



[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 12:22:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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udev, it seems. [ http://wiki.debian.org/HALRemoval ]

D-Bus is just an IPC mechanism. It's going to be there regardless of what device manager is sitting underneath.

[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 15:29:41 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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udev is the replacement for devfs, the thing replacing HAL is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviceKit, with its minions ukit and upower. Under the reign of PolicyKit they let you mount your usb sticks and whatnot as normal user. And it is easy, have a look here: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-858965-highlight-.html <- one monster of a firstpost and 12 pages of addendum...

And of course you need not only ConsoleKit, PolicyKit and DeviceKit, no, you will also need PAM as it seems. And I hate PAM. I once had all my systems PAMfree.

The funny thing is, that it seems that PolKit replaced PolicyKit and the DeviceKit stuff  is merged into (lib)udev...

Stuff like this and the "Xorg goes HAL, all will be golden now. Wait, we are removing HAL and we will not go with the next hype since they deprecate it before anyone converts to it" incidents are what I ment with "hey, lets reimplement it again, differently". It is the complete opposite to the MS route who stick with a stupid concept for years. But both ways suck.



[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 18:00:32 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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MS sticking with a stupid concept for years isn't exactly their standard procedure either. What they do is introduce the new wonderful API to end all API's, to be their big new thing going forward --- every two years or so.

[#] Wed Jul 20 2011 21:16:02 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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MMMMmmmmm PAM.  I wonder if I still have the thread where I argued with Patrick Volkerding (Slackware) about my need for a PAM package (and my naive thoughts on how easy it would be).  Early in my messing around with Linux and found that I did not in fact want to recompile all that needed to be recompiled.  Turns out there are folks that ended up packaging linux-pam for Slack, but that was years later - and I used their work to my advantage when I needed to install VMWare Server on Slackware.  Being lazy pays off some times :-)

Ax25



[#] Thu Jul 21 2011 17:15:28 EDT from skpacman @ Uncensored

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So, I've been putting-off updating my Ubuntu10.10 systems to 11.04 because last time I tried, it screwed up xorg and nvidia horribly. I don't want to nuke my system and do a fresh install of 11.04, nor do I want to lose my gfx drivers and have to do back-handed ways to get them back.

Anyone have advice?

-- 
Stephen D King
skpacman8629@gmail.com



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