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[#] Sun May 10 2009 08:36:58 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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That toolbar thing just smacks of "different for the sake of being different".
I hate that....

[#] Sun May 10 2009 12:17:19 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I *just* installed Ubuntu workstation (the latest) on a vm, and am currently dipping in it.

The flash player went in without a hitch for me, but then, I chose the GNOME one (I figured I'd push the envelope a bit).



[#] Sun May 10 2009 16:50:41 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Actually I think the folks who put the GNOME toolbar at the top were trying to make it look like a Mac.

[#] Sun May 10 2009 17:12:04 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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freetards from forking it and blowing the whole Ubuntu dream. It
worked, but we're stuck with these annoyances now.

Maybe they should have let them fork and see who wins. I'm guessing the people who enjoy the less annoying experience would win.

[#] Mon May 11 2009 18:12:02 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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That can backfire. Sometimes both sides keep going. We're still waiting for either GNOME or KDE to die.

[#] Mon May 11 2009 20:49:25 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Couldn't people from one side, 'join' the other side to 'help' and slow them down?

[#] Mon May 11 2009 21:39:46 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Well, if you're into espionage, there's always the fact that Microsoft paid Miguel de Icaza to start the GNOME project in order to deliberately fragment the community and slow the progress of KDE. (No, I can't prove it but it seems obvious to me.)

[#] Tue May 12 2009 06:33:23 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I was under the impression that the Gnome project was started due to a perceived licensing issue with the heavy use of Qt in KDE.  Gnome wanted something not encumbered with a commercial license at all.

The Qt folks adjusted their license to make it more attractive to the community, but the inertia of both efforts continue.



[#] Tue May 12 2009 06:47:20 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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exact. licensing KDE under the GPL wasn't legal with the original QT license. So distributing KDE could have led to legal issues. It didn't happen, but it could have as we all know meanwhile it does happen.

Meanwhile QT was dual licensed by trolltec under the GPL.

There however is another major difference between GNOME and KDE:

KDE is C++, while gnome is done in C.

If you buy the KDE stuff for your application, you've got a verry close lock-in which isn't as tight in GNOME.



[#] Tue May 12 2009 07:42:58 EDT from samjam @ Uncensored

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Tue May 12 2009 6:47:20 am EDT EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

exact. licensing KDE under the GPL wasn't legal with the original QT license. So distributing KDE could have led to legal issues. It didn't happen, but it could have as we all know meanwhile it does happen.

Meanwhile QT was dual licensed by trolltec under the GPL.

There however is another major difference between GNOME and KDE:

KDE is C++, while gnome is done in C.

If you buy the KDE stuff for your application, you've got a verry close lock-in which isn't as tight in GNOME.

Gnome is also done in Vala these days which is much better than C++ (IMHO).

http://live.gnome.org/Vala

Vala + gnome kicks mono into the dirt, and because vala compiles to C, it IS C for all intents, you can write and use C libraries with it.



[#] Tue May 12 2009 07:43:21 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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why do you say c++ forces more lock-in than C?

[#] Tue May 12 2009 10:49:39 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Yeah, I'm not sure I understand how the language creates lock-in.

[#] Tue May 12 2009 12:22:17 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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you've got glib, which delivers a quiet descent framework which you can use without X11. for example mpd (which is a headless mp3 player with tcp control) switched to it recently.

if you do KDE, you need the whole toolchain; i've seen verry few kde related programms (count QLandkaret/GT on that list)

 



[#] Tue May 12 2009 21:41:27 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I'd actually like to see KDE get smaller and smaller until it gets to the point where most of the applications can be written in plain Qt.  Then we'd get Mac and Windows versions for free.  That'd be a nice place to be.



[#] Mon Jun 01 2009 13:02:01 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: One desktop to rule them all?

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Wow,

I hadn't logged in for a while. Sorry.  I was watching a video presentation about Google Wave and thought to myself... hey, that reminds me of Citadel... and ding... it reminded me to login.

So, here's a comment from a posting a while ago:

> We're still waiting for either GNOME or KDE to die.

Why are we waiting for them to die?  I think competition is good.  Where would either be wtihout the other?  I think both projects competing with each other has been very good and that without that competion, neither one would be half of what it is today.

--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, MT
dowdle@montanalinux.org



[#] Mon Jun 01 2009 13:26:44 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Why GNOME was started...

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Greetings,

> there's always the fact that Microsoft paid Miguel de Icaza to start the GNOME project in order to deliberately fragment the community and slow the progress of KDE.

Hmm, I'm not sure where you got that idea.  Miguel had been contributing to free software for quite a while before GNOME was started.  The main reason GNOME was started was because there were a number of people who were uncertain about the license that Trolltech released QT under... and they were right to be concerned... because if someone had bought Trolltech they could have totally screwed up KDE.

Sometime after GNOME was started the Trolltech folks decided to create a non-profit foundation as well as dual-license QT.  That was definitely a positive move and made most folks feel more comfortable with QT and KDE... although it didn't stop the GNOME project.

If I remember correctly one of Miquel's first projects was Midnight Commander (mc) which was a clone of a DOS program Norton Commander.  Then he got heavily involved with the Gnumeric spreadsheet.  He seems to have a track record of identifying good closed products and making a free clone of them.  Then there was Red Carpet... which got bought out by Novell... and the whole Mono Project thing.  I personally do not use mono and remove all mono apps but I don't say everyone needs to.

TYL,

--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, MT
dowdle@montanalinux.org



[#] Mon Jun 01 2009 13:31:34 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: QT apps on Windows and Mac?

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Greetings,

> I'd actually like to see KDE get smaller and smaller until it gets to the point where most of the applications can be

> written in plain Qt. Then we'd get Mac and Windows versions for free.

One of the goals with KDE 4 is to make it multi-platform.  They have ports for Windows and Mac but they are still working on it.  The design of KDE 4 was very broad and meant to be a foundation that would last at least 10 years.  For that reason they really did a lot of work figuring out what libraries were needed and what would make it easy for app developers.  It reminds me of the work Apple has done with their "core" series of libraries.

TYL,

--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, MT
dowdle@montanalinux.org



[#] Mon Jun 01 2009 17:11:55 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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so it's actually QT's fault gnome exists. Too bad.

[#] Mon Jun 01 2009 22:58:20 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: One desktop to rule them all?

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I hadn't logged in for a while. Sorry.  I was watching a video presentation

about Google Wave and thought to myself... hey, that reminds me of Citadel...

and ding... it reminded me to login.

They're doing some interesting things in Wave. I don't know if it'll catch on, but if it does, they have fortunately opened the protocol so we'll be able to interoperate with it.

[#] Thu Jun 04 2009 17:12:00 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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fedora to remove 'tomboy' some sort of a personal wiki  from the core distribution.

its sort of the 'last reason' to have mono in fedora.

thank god debian never got such a dependency.

(a java or python dependencies would also turn me down)



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