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[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 11:32:02 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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But then, I suspect a lot of American programmers aren't so great,
either.

the problem is that our not so great programmers get paid a lot more than china's not so great programmers. so if you're going to burden the heavy hitters with the cleanup from the not-so-great programmer's mess anyway, why not save a little money in the process.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 11:33:37 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Dec 18 2003 8:46am from Chickenhead @uncnsrd
I keep forgetting that China has "most favoured nation" trading status

(to hell with human rights, I guess, Walmart needs landfill trash for

yuppies).


well, they got the olympics and they're jumping through lots of hoops to make themselves look less shitty to the rest of the world, and in the process I think things are actually getting better there.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 11:35:07 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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percentage of the technical folks I've met from Asia view it as a trade
that
they can support themselves and, if applicable, their familes, with and
aren't
all that interested in being good at it for its own sake, while a greater

percentage of the US/Scandinavians look at it more as an art form.

This is true of any skill like fleeb said, but being in the field we see more of the variation than others.
certainly if these people weren't dirt poor and could afford a few extra computers laying around, the ones who didn't know any better would become hobbyists and become part of the art form crowd.
I refer to the example of the best computer programmer in the history of man was probably a caveman. but we'll never know.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 11:37:47 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I find this a bit sad, but it still works well enough: there are number of really good people here that are only in this business because they looked in the nytimes for a job and sorted by price. but they're smart guys and can do their job well and understand everything, but they don't have the love of the art like the hobbyists do.
there's one guy here, who I think just doesn't realize how smart he is. he seems to not understand why other people don't 'get it'. he's not being obnoxious, he just does his thing really well and doesn't understand why he's dealing with some real idiots. I've tried to explain it to him a few times that he's more gifted than he knows, and it's not just computers, everything he touches. but he'll be the first to admit, he's motivated by money.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 11:44:51 EST from Mr.T @ Uncensored

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certainly if these people weren't dirt poor

That's a fair point, to an extent: anyone, anywhere who can afford enough
computer exposure and education to be able to program isn't dirt poor by a
long shot.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 12:07:28 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Hopefully, any money-driven opportunists who aren't already unemployed will continue their exodus, leaving more room for the people who truly love the technology world.

On the other hand, any company (including *INTERNATIONAL* Business Machines) is going to be motivated primarily by cost vs. value. If they can get their engineering work done offshore for less, they're going to do it, as long as it's comparable quality work. Only time will tell if that's true. Some offshore work has already come back to the USA because it was of poor quality (such as the Dell tech support for certain models ... although IMHO anyone dumb enough to buy a Dell deserves crap tech support).

Cost vs. value is a complex equation. It's not as cut and dry as most people want it to be.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 12:26:59 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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The ACM has had a lot of discussions concerning this point (migrating tech jobs overseas). Their position is that it seems to work best for work that's fairly routine, but you want to keep your star players at home. At least, that's how I read them.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 13:52:48 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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the USA because it was of poor quality (such as the Dell tech support

for certain models ... although IMHO anyone dumb enough to buy a Dell

deserves crap tech support).

I think anybody who tries to buy a computer on the cheap and has the gall to call tech support deserves what they get. :-)

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 13:56:50 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Why outsource Dell tech support to India? It's cheaper to just put up a recording that says "Reboot. If that doesn't fix the problem, run the System Restore CD. Thank you for wasting your money on Dell."

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 14:59:15 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Since we're on the subject:

Lehman moves help desk out of India
http://theregister.co.uk/content/53/34582.html

(tech enthusiasts should be reading the Reg daily anyway)

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 15:10:14 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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actually I've thought about this, it's better if we all read our own crap.
I don't read the register, but I do read nww, which apparently nobody else here does.
so I filter out all the crap and post the interesting stuff, and you do as well. I think it works better since everybody here does this, and we get a good overview of the entire world.
rarely can somebody tell me something at work that I didn't read on uncnsrd first.
That's why I think the ucnsrd group is such a novel resource.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 15:27:59 EST from Mr.T @ Uncensored

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Haha. The Gartner Group.

[#] Thu Dec 18 2003 15:41:09 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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yeah, but still, it's not all them.

[#] Fri Dec 19 2003 01:21:23 EST from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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the problem is that our not so great programmers get paid a lot more

than china's not so great programmers. so if you're going to burden the

heavy hitters with the cleanup from the not-so-great programmer's mess

anyway, why not save a little money in the process.

This is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Where does the next generation of talented programmer come from for the fundamental work that cannot be fed overseas? Once the domestic labor pool is reduced likewise reduced is the pool of gifted programmers. Eventually the quality and evolution of the entire industry becomes affected in a very negative way.

[#] Fri Dec 19 2003 12:06:16 EST from Ford II @ Uncensored

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I'm not seeing how you're connecting the dots between "domestic labor pool is reduced likewise rduces is the pool of gifted programmers."
programmers are gifted regardless of market conditions.
yes, you will get more people going into the field because it's a more lucrative market place if that's the case, but I think it's safe to say that most 'gifted programmers' are hobbiests first. and unless the market is so bad that they stop making computers there will be an ample supply of talent from the hobby pool

[#] Fri Dec 19 2003 16:05:05 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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That bit of one-sided fluff by the Gartner Group is a bit old. Not that they won't continue spewing such nonsense as long as their monthly checks from Microsoft keep rolling in.

[#] Sat Dec 20 2003 14:33:48 EST from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Ford II: If we agree that any pool of laborers has a spread of capability then the domestic pool of porgrammers range from apprentice to gifted with the mean somewhere in the journeyman range.

Reducign the domestic pool of programmers reduces the number of gifted as well as journeyman and apprentice programmers. The first to go will inevitably be those of less capability but eventually even the gifted will be affected reducing the number available for there will be fewer apprentice and journeymen to advance to the gifted ranks.

Moving lower level programming jobs to China and India will eventually backfire harming domestic capability.

[#] Sun Dec 21 2003 07:54:45 EST from Mr.T @ Uncensored

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terrorist, would you please explain what you mean by "apprentice"
programmers?

[#] Sun Dec 21 2003 22:43:25 EST from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Recent graduates, novices, neophytes. Beginners. Code-monkeys.

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