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[#] Thu Jun 25 2009 16:37:49 EDT from Freakdog @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Verizon seems to do all new FIOS installs using MoCA now, which forces

you to use the Actiontec router they supply. Word on the street is
"Actiontec routers suck" (I seem to recall hearing Animal say the same

thing).

When my Netopia Cayman router died, I bought an ActionTec, and it's been performing wonderfully.

Now, as to the box that they're providing you, it's most likely that you can not take that out of the mix...it's what separates out the VDSL signal for the TV piece from the internet traffic.

I have to imagine, though, that the ActionTec unit that you're getting would beat the hell out of the 2Wire crap that AT&T is using for Uverse.

[#] Thu Jun 25 2009 17:47:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Uverse is IPTV. FIOS isn't. FIOS takes an ordinary digital cable (QAM) band and maps it onto one of the fiber wavelengths, and maps it back to QAM at the ONT. They're only using MoCA for video on demand and for guide data.

[#] Thu Jun 25 2009 18:15:07 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Well, I'm back, and everything you said is true.
He gave me a new router (anybody wanna buy a relativly new wrt54gl? It's the one running linux...
So yea, it seems that when I bought fios the first time around, there was no such thing as TV, so they didn't try very hard to splice the video service line.
It wasn't looking too pretty there for a minute, but I learned a valuable lesson.
Buy shit during an economic downturn. Apparently the fios install people are short of work, so when the install guy called them to fix the splice, 3 trucks showed up within 20 minutes.
Voila all fixed.
So yea, they gave me this 10/100 4 port wireless router.
There's a coax wire running from the OTN to inside the house where it splits, one goes to the router, one goes to the set top box.
Every few years I go to somebody's house who has the lastest video game console and I'm impressed by how far the industry has come since I last looked.
Well the last time I had cable was... never.
So I was impressed at all the shit they've built in.
Anyway, I didn't get too detailed with the guy, I was more interested in making sure I could put all my shit back the way I had it as easily as possible.
My first boo-boo was to change my router's address from 192.168.1 to 192.168.123
figuring it would be a lot easier to fix the router than to fix all my computers and routes and shit.
And then the on demand stopped working. Oh right, I forgot the set top box.
so I rebooted the router and that made it dhcp again so then it started working.
As for putting it in bridged mode, I dunno, there's all sorts of advanced stuff in the config I haven't looked at let alone played with.
I'm trying to find a good speed test, supposedly I get 20/5 now instead of my 10/2

[#] Thu Jun 25 2009 18:15:13 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Oh, we have TV.

[#] Thu Jun 25 2009 23:00:42 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Actually, if you had just rebooted the set top box, it would have picked up an address in the new range (I'm assuming you also changed the router's DHCP service pool, not just its own address).

Here's what I'm gathering from reading various bits of documentation:

* The actiontec router has two virtual MoCA interfaces, which can be on two different channels. Verizon apparently uses channel 0 to bridge the ONT to the outside of the router, and channel 1 to bridge the inside of the router to your set top boxen.

* The inside interface of the router is also bridged to its LAN ports, of course.


So it seems that to get the configuration desired by people like us, you have to:

1. Get the Verizon guy to configure the ONT to provide data on its 100baseT port, not over MoCA. This means that Channel 0 on the MoCA plant is unused.

2. Cnfigure the actiontec router to use its Ethernet WAN port as its "outside" interface, and Channel 1 of its MoCA port as its "inside" interface. Or, bridge the LAN ports and Moca channel 1 (and perhaps the wireless) together as the "inside" interface, leave the "outside" interface unused, and disable DHCP.


We'll see whether my Verizon guy is friendly enough to do this when I ask him.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 02:54:31 EDT from Peter Pulse @ Uncensored

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It's idiotic that they would want to run the internet over the cable, because my understanding of how FIOS works is that the internet that comes out the ethernet port on the FIOS box is on a different wavelength laser and really can be thought of as a whole different physical layer even though it is running thought the same fiber. And the bandwith available there is HUGE. The coax connection runs on another wavelength and they just take the broadband cable signal and jam it through there, TV channels, internet, interactive services, cable box updates, you name it. It's an off the shelf cable TV system, but with some fiber jammed in the middle. They did it that way so that the off the shelf boxes, splitters, and all the head end stuff etc etc etc would just work and they would not have to re-invent it all. What comes along with that is all the problems and limitations of cable internet that FIOS is supposed to improve upon. The way I understood it was supposed to work is that the "cable" internet service was just going to service the box.. on-demand stuff etc. Guess not.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 10:42:47 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Actually, if you had just rebooted the set top box, it would have
picked up an address in the new range (I'm assuming you also changed
the router's DHCP service pool, not just its own address).

I did reboot the box, didn't help. And yeah, and I change the dchp pool. I had to because I change ed my address.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 10:43:47 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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We'll see whether my Verizon guy is friendly enough to do this when I

ask him.

My guy was very cool, and technically savvy, and very accomodating, so you may have a shot.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 10:59:45 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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it was supposed to work is that the "cable" internet service was just

going to service the box.. on-demand stuff etc. Guess not.

That's what I thought too, and I think around when they started doing fios, that was the plan.
But money being what it is.... They must have figured out that cable was good enough, and when the next generation of services that require more use of the fiber comes out.... well, that will be their problem (the future verizon employees) not the current verizon employee's problem.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 11:03:32 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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So I was on the phone with verizon support for an hour, mostly on hold, but the most amazing thing happened.
I got to talk to the lady in texas who is in charge of dsl provided by other companies
That makes no sense, but she's the lady who knows what's wrong with my fios setup.
And she's going to help me.
I am the very first person to try and do what I'm doing and there apparently is a bug in the registration software that one would normally use to do what I'm doing, and since nobody has before, it never came up. So rather than have me wait for the software release cycle, they've got a few really top notch senior people who are all going to get on a conference call and Fix My Problem.

When I was at AT&T, it was impossible for a customer to get in touch with me in development, that kind of thing just never happens. But that it what I just did. I talked to technical people who actually flip bits and push buttons and make things go. And they say they understand the problem and they're going to fix it. And this time, I actually believe them.
This all started because I wanted to register my user account on verizon.net but my order number isn't a standard fios order number. according to the javascript on their sign up page, an order number starts with 4 letters, mine starts with NY00 so it doesn't pass the javascript validation.
Obviously the web page guys have no idea that people like me exist.
So lucky me I'm going around the problem, and real humans are going to manhandle the system until I look like a normal verizon fios customer.
I have a dream.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 11:46:17 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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It's idiotic that they would want to run the internet over the cable,

because my understanding of how FIOS works is that the internet that

comes out the ethernet port on the FIOS box is on a different
wavelength laser and really can be thought of as a whole different
physical layer even though it is running thought the same fiber. And


Yes, that's how it works.

They're not really running internet over the cable in the same way that a cable modem would work -- it isn't DOCSIS. MoCA is really just a way to bridge Ethernet over coaxial cable, using frequencies that don't interfere with cable television. So the way you are describing their cable service is absolutely correct: it's an ordinary one-way digital cable plant, mapped onto a fiber wavelength, and then remodulated back to RF at the ONT. There's also a MoCA bridge in the ONT.
So what they're doing is to send the data pipe to the MoCA bridge in the ONT, which sends the "public" side of your Internet connection onto MoCA channel 0, where it's received by the router. The router does its normal NAT and firewall stuff, and the inside interface of the router is bridged to the LAN ports, the wireless ports, and MoCA channel 1, which is how your set top boxes pick up the network.

By doing it that way, they save time on the installations. I'm sure their goal is to eventually be able to schedule multiple FIOS installs per day.
Remember when a DSL installation was an all-day affair?

When an installer walks up to a house, he's likely to find existing telephone and cable television wiring. They want the installation to become as simple as mounting the ONT and attaching it to their fiber plant, and then moving the home's existing telephone and cable television wiring over. Then they just drop the router in where the cable modem used to be, and they're done. Since a lot of people now have only laptops with wireless, many installations will end up having no Cat5 at all.

They already are at the point where they will charge you to run Ethernet cables, because the router gets installed wherever your main computer area is, and with MoCA now on the scene, they no longer have to run Ethernet to the set top boxes in order to put advanced interactive services on the televisions.

Yes, it's stupid. We all know that what they should have done is to put a second two-way data channel on the ONT, map that to a private network, and use *that* to talk to the STB's using MoCA. Then enable the Ethernet port and use that for the subscriber's Internet access. The private network already exists -- it's providing SIP service to a four port ATA; that's how the box offers POTS telephone service (and unfortunately, there's no way to plug in an IP Phone, you have to use the POTS ports). So there you go, the technology is there, and it's possible to make it work the technically correct way, but this is The Phone Company we're dealing with.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 11:48:25 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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according to the javascript on their sign up page, an order number
starts with 4 letters, mine starts with NY00 so it doesn't pass the
javascript validation.

Ha. That explains why I can't view my order online either.

You'd think that a major ISP could make a web site work.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 12:36:43 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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Oh, I forgot to tell you the funniest part.
My phone is dead.

My guess is when they climbed the poll to rewire the connection to make the video signal clearer, the guy must have said "he doesn't need this copper anymore" not knowing I was keeping my copper phone line.
Just a little icing on the cake.
Of course the FIOS people showed up in 20 minutes to fix the fiber, the copper guys haven't showed up yet.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 12:39:10 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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right. that's still the PHONE COMPANY.

[#] Fri Jun 26 2009 14:03:19 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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They must have needed that copper pair to wire one of your neighbors for DSL.
:)

[#] Tue Jun 30 2009 00:34:00 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Speaking of which ... this room is way overdue to be renamed. Any suggestions?

[#] Tue Jun 30 2009 00:48:10 EDT from wizard of aahz @ Uncensored

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What's the Frequency Kenneth?

[#] Tue Jun 30 2009 10:19:32 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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I Want My Broadband seems appropriate to how we use this room now.

[#] Tue Jun 30 2009 12:22:12 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Ok, so we renamed it to "I Want Broadband Everything" ... and we're using the consumer/marketing definition of broadband (i.e. "faster than dialup") as opposed to the actual definition (broadband as opposed to baseband).

Ford, and other FiOS subscribers: here's a link to a page that describes all of the different Actiontec hookups vis-a-vis coax vs. ethernet and how you can switch between different types of setups.

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfios/3.1_Actiontec

I will of course be asking my installer to feed the Internet connection through the ONT's ethernet port, and I'll configure the Actiontec as a three-way bridge.
No double-NAT for me, thanks.

[#] Fri Jul 03 2009 10:49:41 EDT from arabella @ Uncensored

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*Head explodes*

 

Thanks IG



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