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[#] Tue Sep 10 2013 22:43:02 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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wait.... candles and a gas leak?

As I said to one of Ignat's friends on G+, if they are using scents, they are trying to cover another smell up.
It is a warning sign.

[#] Tue Sep 10 2013 22:46:08 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Tue Sep 10 2013 10:23:27 PM EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS
Candles, etc.. yada yada...

That's why God created litigation...

Vince,

It was not worth it.  It was a settled issue back when they added the extra "smell" to natural gas to let you know there was a leak.  To bring the court system in to a purchase between a willing seller and a willing buyer would just add to my frustration with the whole transaction.  Later nanny generations might think otherwise, but I think I am better off with caveat emptor.

 



[#] Tue Sep 10 2013 22:47:22 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Tue Sep 10 2013 10:43:02 PM EDT from zooer @ Uncensored
wait.... candles and a gas leak?

As I said to one of Ignat's friends on G+, if they are using scents, they are trying to cover another smell up.
It is a warning sign.

Agreed, I don't offer that as good advice, but more of a warning.



[#] Tue Sep 10 2013 23:05:11 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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Tue Sep 10 2013 19:46:08 PDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

 

Tue Sep 10 2013 10:23:27 PM EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS
Candles, etc.. yada yada...

That's why God created litigation...

Vince,

It was not worth it.  It was a settled issue back when they added the extra "smell" to natural gas to let you know there was a leak.  To bring the court system in to a purchase between a willing seller and a willing buyer would just add to my frustration with the whole transaction.  Later nanny generations might think otherwise, but I think I am better off with caveat emptor.

 



When a seller creates an artificial environment to conceal something, that is known in the World of Law as "misrepresentation of material fact" and is one of several "elements" that can be used to justify and prove the Cause of Action called Fraud.

A seller is required (in most states) by law to disclose all known significant defects in the real estate he is selling. To fail so to do, and in this case the failure is egregious, opens the seller and the listing realtor to liabilities. You could easily have won the following:

1. cost of repair/replacement of the defective item(s), along with punitive damages (easy to do that when the cause of action is Fraud).

2. civil penalties against the listing agent, the agent's broker, including fines by the state licensing agency and compensation to you as the financially injured party.

Now here is where it gets real real real interesting:

This is something that the bank (mortgage company) should have picked up prior to the closing. A case could be made that the mortgage is defective. A good attorney could push to have the mortgage nullified claiming the bank, the realtor, and the seller acted in concert to convey a defective property. The facts scream this at me. The facts would equally scream that at a judge (in a "court trial") and certainly would scream it at a jury (in a jury trial).

It would, of course, never go to trial. Your defendants would beat a path to your door begging for a settlement. Had you "played your cards" deftly you could possibly have ended up with a free and  clear title to your house.

It is rather odd to see the phrase "cavieat emptor" in your message. Fact is, that the two areas where most folks think Caveat Emptor applies most (real estate and car sales) are the two areas where it actually applies the least.

Unless your Agreement of Sale specifically stated "as-is and where is" and specifically stated that there was no Warranty of Merchantability or Warranty of Fitness for a Specific Purpose then you most certainly would have prevailed.

And depending on the State in which this happened, it may not even be legal to sell real estate without those two very important warrantees - which is why they are often called implied warrantees. Many states do not permit them to be waived by the buyer or by the seller, by statement, implication, or omisison.

--Vince (who, by the way, is *not* a lawyer, just well studied in the Law)



[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 07:41:47 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Funny you should mention scented candles; the house we want to buy has had those burning both times we looked at it. Although in that case I suspect the smell being covered up is pet related, which is not a defect per se but perhaps something that can be used to knock down the price.

We got an offer on our house yesterday. It's $20K under our listing price, so we need to neg that back up a bit before we can accept. Hopefully this will happen fast ... I love love love this house but I'm ready to move on.

[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 10:42:59 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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Good, congratulations and I am glad things moved quickly.

[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 11:02:12 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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Wed Sep 11 2013 04:41:47 PDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
Funny you should mention scented candles; the house we want to buy has had those burning both times we looked at it. Although in that case I suspect the smell being covered up is pet related, which is not a defect per se but perhaps something that can be used to knock down the price.

We got an offer on our house yesterday. It's $20K under our listing price, so we need to neg that back up a bit before we can accept. Hopefully this will happen fast ... I love love love this house but I'm ready to move on.

If the smell is dog or cat urine, be very very wary. That $20K may be way insufficient to correct the following.

Pet urine, particularly feline, seeps through carpet to the flooring and if it gets to the wooden sub-floor (underlayment) it requires replacement of the subfloor. Absolutely no treatment can permanently remove the eternal lingering remains of cat piss.

Before you close on that house insist on a neutral third party inspection, without pre-announcement, and specifically state that any presence of scented candles will void the sale.

I absolutely know from personal experience that you could be looking at a massive expense (most of it labor) if you have a situation where the subfloor is "tainted."

If you discover the damage after the closing/settlement please see my other posting on what to do based on "miis-statement of material fact(s)" and fraud. You'll have a case. And it most certainly is a "defect per se."

Of course, I may be completely over-reacting here since many real estate agents tell their sellers to include a 'vanilla scented' candle, lit prior to the scheduled showing, as part of the "staging" of the house. The idea is to give the house a "cozy" aroma. This is not fraudulent in any way. It only becomes fraud when the intent is to use the candle scent to conceal another odor-related problem which would either be an impediment to the sale, or a concealed defect (damaged flooring due to contamination). Your absolute best course here is to have a professional engineering inspection by an inspector of your choice and at your expense, and make sure you inform the inspector of your suspicion regarding odor concealment and possible permanent urine contamination of flooring. If it's there, the inspector will find it and note it in the report. You will then have a massive upper hand.



[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 13:07:34 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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$20K below listing is the offer that was made on our current house. We are offering $14,900 below the listing price on the house we want ... but yes, it would seem to make sense that if there is permanent damage from cat urine then we need to make some changes to that. There's already another offer in, so I suspect we're going to lose this house anyway.

[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 15:26:45 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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My Dad's Primary Rule for Buying a House:

Never never never never never for any reason get involved in a "bidding war" with "another buyer."

The other buyer almost always does not exist (or is a 'straw-man') - it is a game utilized by real estate sales droids to coax higher prices.



[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 17:32:27 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Nope. We made a solid offer and they can take it or leave it. I hope they take it ... we totally fell in love with this house. It's two and a half times the size of the little cottage we're living in now.

[#] Wed Sep 11 2013 18:08:28 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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Sep 11 2013 2:32pm from IGnatius T Foobar @uncnsrd (Uncensored)
Nope. We made a solid offer and they can take it or leave it. I hope

they take it ... we totally fell in love with this house. It's two and

a half times the size of the little cottage we're living in now.



I know the feeling. In 1992 I sold my small cottage to move about 1 mile into "the Mansion" - 2nd largest home in town - 5 bedrooms, 2 kitchens, 3 baths, etc. etc. etc.

One of the bedrooms was in my private apartment wing, which is also where we built the machine room op-center for NetK2NE back in Browns Mills. Covered wooden deck in the back overlooked roughly an acre, most of which was eventually occupied by my "garden" railroad (G scale).

To this day I regret selling that place and moving out here. I keep telling myself that the plusses outweighed the negatives.

To this day I really think I am still trying to convince myself of that, and still not quite doing it...

I do *not* particularly miss New Jersey - one summer out here, with almost no uncomfortable humidity will quickly cure any Joisey-ite of wanting to "go back" - ever.

But that house.
I want it back.

Oh - out here it would probably be worth between 1 and 1.5 million bucks. Back in NJ, on a good market day it *might* (today) be worth about $250K.

And if I had that house on *my* 5 acres here on this mountain in the Cascade foothills, double that CA price .... oh well...

As the Greatful Dead would say if they were German:

Scheiss passiert...

[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 00:08:48 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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In the whole scheme of things vince-q, it was the fact that it was a sub $100 fix to a drier.   First house, and I learned from the experience.  Having done troubleshooting on the furnace in the current house has made me learn a bit more about heating systems and repair versus replacement costs.  I think I made out o.k. in the scheme of things.  Sorry you miss your Jersey house, but not enough to have taken that much of a bath on it :-)  I do miss the old neighborhood, but not the old crappy house.  So many things I discovered from that first house, like:

If you have ice damming and it melts leaving the drywall damp, and you can touch the wall and get a shock...You might have a cable laying against the front wall that used to be hooked up to a front door outside light that was simply turned around and not capped or cut off at a junction....

The gas leak (prior mention)

The inadequacy of the roof vent for the furnace.  Rude awakening from the CO detector and a fun morning spent running a fresh air vent in the side wall.  I learned a bit about hole cutters that could be run via a 3/8" drill that day...

So many fun experiences :-)



[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 00:15:46 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

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Vince-q, I might have sounded like I did not gain from that last email (I did, quite a bit in fact).  Thanks for sharing your insight.  Quite a bit of good stuff in there (even with the correction on my - as I felt correct use of the caveat emptor as a facetious element of the whole discussion).

Thanks for taking part in this whole experiment (bbs'ing in later years).   I am having a hell of a fun time on here (and avoiding feces book at the same time!)



[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 11:13:47 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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All this talk about everyone's "first house" makes me feel better about leaving the Mouse House behind. I was determined to stay here my whole life, and build an addition someday, but moving to a new place is just so much better in terms of sqft-per-dollar that I changed my mind a few months ago.

I really do love this place.

[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 12:43:57 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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Thu Sep 12 2013 08:13:47 PDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
I really do love this place.

Ah, the primary failing of humans - falling "in love" with a "house."

A house is nothing more than a bunch of sticks (and maybe some stones) arranged in a particular order for the convenience of people.

Change the order of arrangement and you'd have a camp-fire circle. Tell me, would you really "love" that? Or would it be "just another campfire?"

Perhaps I am just a tad too utilitarian when it comes to real estate, but a house really is just a bunch of sticks and stones arranged in a peculiarly special order for my own convenience, comfort and necessity. And when any one of those three "needs" begins to fail or change, then it is time sell it, or convert it to a rental, and move on.

So, IGgy, have you considered moving but not selling the Mouse House and using it as rental property and making money? And before you yell and scream about qualifying for mortgage(s) to buy your new house without selling your old one, there are ways of doing that which will not impede your ability to buy that new house.



[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 12:45:32 EDT from vince-q @ Cascade Lodge BBS

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Ok - so I just have to ask - the curiosity is ... well ... insurmountable.

IGgy - why do you call it the "Mouse House?"



[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 16:44:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Oh, and the buyers accepted our very first counter offer, just $5k short of our asking price, one week after we put it on the market. I am a happy IG.

[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 16:43:28 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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It's not much more than just a feeling -- when we went house shopping in 1995 we saw a bunch of homes, and I just "knew" this was the house for us as soon as we pulled in the driveway. I always thought we'd expand it someday, so it was a big mental hurdle to get over, to get in the mindset to move.

The name "The Mouse House" was given to it long before we lived there. We didn't know about the name when we bought the house, but later heard it from multiple different sources.

Take a look: [ http://tinyurl.com/mwzep72 ]

It's a small house, but viewed from the front it looks even smaller than it actually is ... as if a family of mice lived there. At least I hope that's it ... it hasn't been infested with mice during the time we lived there. We have cats :)

[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 18:10:12 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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Very goood Ignat. Congrats.

[#] Thu Sep 12 2013 18:16:46 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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I do have two questions, Does Geri Smith always wear the hat she has on in her picture? What is the difference
between a "Licensed Salesperson" and a "Licensed Realtor"? (I am going to ask my sister that one as well)

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