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[#] Tue Nov 21 2000 12:53:08 EST from Grover @ Dog Pound BBS II

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what the hell is this room for? Sally Forth comic strips? one less than Fifth?

[#] Wed Nov 22 2000 06:56:42 EST from Aussie @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Go forth and multiply??? :)

[#] Sun Nov 26 2000 03:14:14 EST from IO ERROR @ Dog Pound BBS II

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There used to be a programming language called Forth. There probably still is.

[#] Thu Feb 15 2001 14:46:12 EST from Curly Surmudgeon @ Dog Pound BBS II

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I do embedded microcontroller applications and Forth is my primary tool.
I've written my own tethered forth dialect for DOS and Windoze and am now testing a linus port. There are more computers running forth than any os but many OEM's consider Forth a trade secret. Every Sun and Mac now boot in Forth, most traffic signals and ATM's run forth.

Forth is more of an engineers language so CS types diss it without understanding it's simplicity and power.

[#] Thu Feb 15 2001 14:58:40 EST from Freakdog @ Dog Pound BBS II

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My understanding is that most ATMs still run OS/2. And every time I see one at an OS/2 command prompt, it's confirmed for me.

[#] Sun Oct 28 2001 12:30:39 EST from Phantom Phan @ Dog Pound BBS II

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I worked at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, AZ. One of the engineers there claimed that FORTH was invented there.

[#] Sun Dec 29 2002 15:19:12 EST from Disconnect @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Dunno about the ATMs directly, but the back-end software tends to run on *NIX (AIX in many places, HP/UX in at least a few.) Used to work on Tuxedo (www.beasys.com) for one of the primary developers of the SWIFT international banking system. Was fun stuff.

[#] Sun Mar 09 2003 12:40:18 EST from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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Oct 28 2001 12:30pm from Phantom Phan @dogpound2
I worked at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, AZ. One

of the engineers there claimed that FORTH was invented there.


Forth was developed by Charles Moore for the Kitt Peak observatory around 1970 and is still in widespread use. For the last year I've been churning out Forth designs to control fiber optic telecommunications that JDSU has been selling and using.

[#] Sat Aug 23 2003 18:45:42 EDT from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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http://www.amresearch.com/hardware.html

"Gadgets" that run Forth, Basic and Assembler.

[#] Tue Dec 23 2003 20:25:49 EST from terrorist @ Dog Pound BBS II

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The Ethernet Gadget works!

An 8051-webserver is working out in the lab as of today. A few bugs to work out but it can handle 4 simultaneous sockets. In-house pings took about a half-millisecond.

Eventually will provide a web interface to embedded applications like environmental control or security.

[#] Sun May 30 2004 19:23:04 EDT from Campagnolo @ MCM Groups

Subject: Network Seed - ignore

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seed
May the FORTH be with you!

[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 02:37:45 EDT from "Krishna Myneni" <krishnamyneni@compuserve.com> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: HTMLizer test results under various Forths

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Krishna Myneni wrote:
...

A preliminary kForth version of this program, renamed
to forth2html.4th, is available at:

ftp://ccreweb.org/software/kforth/examples/forth2html.4th

The regular and framed html files are generated, but at
present the index list doesn't appear to be complete.
The output is quite useful! Kudos to Brad Eckert, et al!

Krishna Myneni



I'm only posting these corrections here because I'm not sure how to
contact the original author. Some fixes to the original code are needed
to handle detection of integer and floating point constants correctly:

\ 11. (KM) Fixed isnumber? to handle negative numbers.
\ 12. (KM) Added definition of >FLOAT suitable for use with Forths
\ which provide floating point but do not provide >FLOAT,
\ e.g. kForth;
\ 13. (KM) Need to preserve base to handle fp constant
\ detection (see changes to fontcolor, <idx>, and make-index),
\ and change in order of integer/fp detection is required
\ (see changes to hint).

: fontcolor ( color -- ) \ change font color
BASE @ >R 1 infont !
misctext 5 line 0 HEX <# # # # # # # #> out "> R> BASE ! ;


: <idx> ( n -- ) \ create link to index
frames if \ links undesirable if no frames
1 attrib ! \ or for W3C HTML validation
<href=" fn3 count out S" #x" out \ <a href="index.htm#x
BASE @ >R HEX 0 <# #S #> out R> BASE !
misctext 18 line \ ..." target="idx">
else drop then ;

: make-index ( -- ) \ make index /9/
cr ." building index "
1 indexing !
fn2 count fn place
cr ." Framed version: " mfn type
mfn ocreate \ create the main file
misctext 10 line fn count .title
ofn xpad place
fn3 COUNT fn PLACE \ filename for index
misctext 11 line xcr
misctext 12 line xcr \ <FRAMESET>
misctext 13 line ofn out
misctext 14 line xcr \ <FRAME SRC= ...
misctext 13 line xpad count out
misctext 15 line xcr \ <FRAME SRC= ...
misctext 16 line xcr \ </FRAMESET>
fclose
cr ." Index file " ofn type
oopen S" <p>" out \ start the menu frame file
index a@ begin ?dup while \ for all index entries:
dup cell+ dup cell+ dup cell+ @
misctext 1 line
BASE @ >R HEX 0 <# #S #> out R> BASE ! \ <a name="x
"> misctext 9 line \ a></a>
iname \ root name
a@ outdex newline \ list of client words
a@ repeat
S" </p></body></html>" outln \ end index
fclose ;

: hint ( addr len -- ) \ interpret one line...
BEGIN
0 token ! BL hparse token C@
WHILE unknown \ default color
XPAD XPAD COUNT superlinks SEARCH-WORDLIST 0= \ fixed hyperlink?
IF XPAD COUNT hyperlinks SEARCH-WORDLIST \ got a hyperlink for this?
ELSE TRUE
THEN
IF DEPTH >R EXECUTE
R> DEPTH <> ABORT" stack depth change in HTML generator"
ELSE
XPAD COUNT isnumber? \ valid number?
IF numeric ELSE BASE @ 10 =
IF XPAD COUNT >FLOAT \ valid float?
IF numeric THEN FDROP
THEN
THEN
THEN genHTML
REPEAT 2DROP newline ;

: isnumber? ( addr len -- f ) \ string converts to number?
OVER C@ [CHAR] - = IF 1 /STRING THEN
0 0 2SWAP >NUMBER NIP NIP NIP 0= ;


KM
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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 00:38:03 EDT from "Jeff Fox" <fox@ultratechnology.com> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Silliness, seriousness, spin and newspeak

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"John Passaniti" <nntp@JapanIsShinto.com> wrote in message news:<lxuAc.351825$M3.339098@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Jeff Fox" <fox@ultratechnology.com> wrote in message
news:4fbeeb5a.0406171253.3e61dc6f@posting.google.com...
"John Passaniti" <nntp@JapanIsShinto.com> wrote in message
news:<rfhAc.179898$hY.162582@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
I was wondering when you might show up to join the others.
I feel sorry for them to be in such company. You might have
noticed that I have not mentioned any of the sort of behavior
that you engage in or made any references to you in recent
threads.

Incorrect on two counts. First, I'm not "joining" anyone. I have no strong
opinion on ANS Forth other than where it makes sense, use it, and where it
doesn't, don't. Second, you haven't referenced me by name, but you've made
plenty of indirect references.

I meant that you were joining into this thread which I started to
address some issues specifically with Bruce and Andrew. I was in no
way inviting you in, but you are welcome to add your opinions and
join the others in this thread.

I really do wonder what it was that I said in my conversations with
Andrew and Bruce, or others, recently that you thought were somehow
indirect references to you. Really, I think other people will
clearly know if I make references, direct or indirect to you.

I don't know why you think I was making any referenes to you but
if you tell me what references I made that you mistakenly thought
were about you I will be more careful in the future to exclude
comments that might appear to anyone to be about you. If you
want to help out with that please tell me the comments that you
thought were somehow about you Mr. Passaniti.

Of course it is kind of funny that I also just used a quote from
you from this newsgroup where you said "And incidentally, I
define Forth as the ANS Forth standard. That in itself will
probably wig out those who think that whatever idea Mr. Moore
is chasing down this year is by definition Forth."

Maybe your memory is too bad to recall that, need a URL? Or
perhaps you will claim that I am taking it out of context. I
suspect that you were just trying to be offensive and shock
people for attention as you do in the newsgroups that you frequent.

Yes, I saw that response. It was typical of you, twisting my statements and
not really answering the questions I asked, but the questions you wanted to
answer. You used my message as a platform to talk about what you wanted,
not to shed any real light on what were serious questions and comments.

I thought I answered your questions. Ask again before I take a leave
if you still have any questions that you care to offer. The stench
here is getting truely awful so ask away before I take another break.

You are after all the only person here to have ever equated Forth
programming to solitary mastrabation and to have equated PERL
programming to group sex. I think you were actually trying to
say something postive about PERL too although I didn't really
see how promoting group sex in a newsgroup about programming was
really very on-topic.

This is a consistent problem you have. You don't seem to have a sense of
humor and you don't seem to understand the use of metaphor. So I guess I'm
not surprised when I combined both humor and metaphor that you just sat
there scratching your head.

I understand the use of metaphore, it is used a lot in c.l.f and I
use it myself. I just don't think that anyone could confuse your
comments about gay pornography or group sex or accusations that you
think someone might be mastrabating to pictures of you that they
downloaded from the internet while posting to a newsgroup about a
programming language could be confused with metaphore by anyone.
I will agree that you have been a persistent problem for me and
this newsgroup for years, I think you used the term Internet stalker.

You are the only person to have accused other people of downloading
gay pornography of you off of the internet to mastrabate to while
posting in this newsgroup.

Not exactly.

Really. You mean other people besides you have done it. As you
always say, show me the URL. I belive that you are the only one.
I will admit that I have missed a few messages over the years so
it is possible that there could be more than one, or perhaps you
were using one of your aliases and did it under another name. Do
you a URL?

I found it fascinating that you were following me around in
other newsgroups that have nothing to do with comp.lang.forth.
I still find that fascinating. I've never had a stalker after
me before. It's kind of exciting.

Like most of your posts you are simply reversing things. And I
have read some of your posts in your local rochester newsgroup
to lean more about your political and religious views.

But you have claimed that you enjoy insulting and infuriating
people on the internet so much that you got death threats. I
found that interesting since you were able to post enough garbage
to get people to send me statments about how they read that you
had labeled me a cultist and that they wished someone would kill
people like me. Certainly if you have enjoyed insulting people
and driving them to send you death threats before because of
your usenet behavior you should not say that you have not
had any stalkers before.

You even said that you once started a thread named "A guide to
killing John" where you gave out more personal information about
your activites and good places and times to catch you in order
to taunt the people who had sent you death threats. I think you
were just bullshiting, at least about the thread telling people
the best places and times but perhaps not about actually getting
people to send you death threats. I have seen how many other
people are deeply offended by your posts in other newsgroups and
how you brag about how much you enjoy that, how you don't give
a damn about what anyone else thinks, etc.

At least I did google to see if you really had posted the guide
to killing John that you bragged about posting. I think it was
just bullshit. I would ask for a URL but I doubt if one exists.
And if you did post such a thread you wouldn't care about posting
the URL, especially considering that the info must be quite out
of date now anyway about your location and schedule etc. Your
life must be pretty damn sad to have to get your excitement
by gratuitous vile obnoxious behavior posting lies and making
personal attacks on people in usenet. But I guess it takes
all kinds, and this is usenet where there are old fashion
people as you say, and people like you who use the Internet
for downloading porn and more exciting usenet experiences.

I haven't followed your posts to the gay porno newsgroups that
you say that you frequent, [...]

Not quite.

I can say that I haven't followed you posts to the gay porno
newsgroups that you say your frequent. I have seen the titles
of them that pop up in google if someone clicks on your name
and I have read what some of the people in Rochester have
said in conversations with you in that non-gay-porno newsgroup
that you helped start when they were complaining about your
behavior in the gay porno newsgroups. And, I will say it again,
I really don't want to know how sick and perverted you have to
get to offend the people in those gay porno newsgroups.

You are the one who cited the newsgroups. I merely confirmed
them. Not that I really cared-- anyone can freely read everything I've ever
written in any newsgroup with Google Groups.

I was just saying that I wondered what sort of sickco you were to
post such bizzare stuff in this newsgroup and read some of your
conversations in your local Rochester newsgroup where I say that
people also complained about off-topic and offensive posts and
what appears to be a hobby of trying to shock and torment people
via usenet.

I still don't see why you felt this was at all topical in
comp.lang.forth, but since you couldn't attack my
ideas, you decided to attack me instead.

I don't suppose that you see that. I have wondered why you first
started to attack my ideas in this newsgroup, then began posting
bizzare missinformation about my business, then began posting all
sorts of crap about cults etc. I saw that other people would ask
you why you would suddenly start complaining about me in threads
where I had said nothing and nothing was even related to anything
that I had ever posted.

I wondered why it was that you would join into threads if I got
into a discussion or arguement with someone and a group, often
of ANS Forth supporters formed, as if you felt that you were the
self-appointed personal tormentor and nastiest of all personalities
looking for another chance to join in if you say that a group of
people did not agree with some of my ideas. I read a few of your
exchanges with people in other newsgroups and it became pretty
clear to me.

I think I explained why I wondered why you were posting such
vile personal attacks and making all the comments about gay
porno and such in this newsgroup which is presumably about
computers and programming.

Typical for you, really.

As there will
always be people new to Forth who want to know what is "modern,"

Yes, and you will be here to tell them. Right?

No, I haven't seen the need. Plenty of other folks correctly point out that
modern Forth development ranges from ANS Forth to ColorFoth to various
non-ANS Forth implementations to Forth-inspired languages like Joy.

And if you get into an arguement with one ANS Forth committee
member others are likely to join in. There are a lot of them
compared to me. And eventually some people who have nothing to
add but personal insults will feel that a large enough crowd
has gathered for them to come in and try a few cheap shots.

Yes, that was an indirect reference to you. But hey you entered
this thread and that's all I was referencing.

Ignoring your incredibly thin skin and persecution complex for the moment,

Once again, what was it that I said recently that you somehow thought
was an indirect reference to you personally. Oh, sorry "plenty of
indirect references" to you? You give yourself way too much credit
and think you are way to important. I didn't make any references to
you until you entered this thread.

I don't think it ever occurred to you that people treat
you the way you treat them.

Poor baby. You felt personally insulted by something I said
about idiots or poor programmers or C, and so you rushed to make
personal attacks. Then you felt insulted when you actually got
some of the attention that excites you. No cause and effect there
at all. ;-)

I have yet to see any ANS Forth folk make comments that I would call
insulting to you, but then I am increasingly tuning out those threads
because you're endlessly repeating yourself, and others are getting more
shrill because *you* are.

Ah no! Young blade! That was a trifle short!
You might have said at least a hundred things
By varying the tone. . .like this, suppose, . . .

Fear not, the bugs are not after you, there is no need to scream for
Phil and his amazing squashing powers to save you from some tiny
frightening insect here.

I'm not the first person to suggest that the way you treat others is the way
people treat you. Seems like a simple lesson, but one you refuse to learn.

I am only trying to treat others the way they treat me, except with
a little style and class as you certainly need some lessons. If no
one else in this newsgroup has the stomach to reply to your filth
let them encourage you with their silence. I will be happy to leave
them and you to enjoy your hobby. As far as I am concerned those who
have been nasty enough to summon you deserve the association.

Yes Jeff, we get it.

I wince whenever you feel so familar to use my first name
Mr. Passaniti. I think you simply want to get attention and
make yourself look important in some way.

I don't see how calling you Jeff makes me look important.

Nor do you see how jumping in, saying that I have been making
'plenty' of indirect references to you personally, is an
indication that you somehow have an inflated notion of your
importance.

But you're free
to entertain that delusion along with your others. I'll certainly not use
your first name if you have a problem with it, although you might want to be
consistent in that. Other people who don't know you personally call you
Jeff, and you don't see to have a problem with them.

If I have a problem with them I will tell them so. You are the only
person who would get his mouth washed out with soap were you to
be so familiar as to call me Jeff to my face. ;-)

Yes. I have done a lot of that. And the site has had millions of hits.
Of course sometimes you, or someone else had taken exception to
something there and come to a place where they expect that they can
get a good flamewar going by saying, 'What do you think of the essay
.... at the UltraTechnology website.' And often people who have not
digested the technical information there or understood the essays or
taken exception to them will respond in c.l.f that they don't like it,
they don't agree with it, or that they just don't get it.

If you don't like people commenting on your ideas, then don't make them
public. Or are you telling me that what you have written-- here or on your
web site-- is somehow off limits for dicussion?

Usenet is a vile and nasty place where one can find perfect examples
of the terrible decline of western civilization, where the most
stupid and obnoxious, seriously ill malajusted sociopathic cowards
engage in trying to shock and anger people for the fun of it. I
am familiar with usenet. And I know far more about you Mr. Passaniti
than I care to know.

It is not unlike my comments that people should have their say
without dealing with hecklers or people trying to shout them down
simply because they don't want others to be exposed to someone
else's point of view. I have seen this at SVFIG meetings and
of course it is par for the course on usenet where it can often
get very coarse. Some people will make personal attacks, attack
someone else's religous views, their friends and family, make
comments about how they suspect them of downloading gay
pornography or get as ugly and insulting as they can. It's usenet.

You get what you give. It's such a simple idea. Embrace it.

You spew out a mix of heterophobic, racist, hateful, missoganism,
and seriously anti-religious crap on usenet because you enjoy
doing that. You enjoy shocking people to get attention and
people either ignore you, try to help you, or give you back
some unfriendly comments in return. I understand that. I have
seen people try to help you, I have seen them get angry with
you. You claim that you have even angered some people so much
that you got death threats and then taunted them further for
fun. Think about it. It's a simple idea.

For years I tried very hard to engage in gentlemanly behavior on
usenet. Last December I concluded that on usenet it was fair for
me to cross any lines that other people had crossed. So when
people get 'abrasive' I can be abrasive right back. If they
want to play with fire, they may get burned by fires that they
start.

I find it funny that you "concluded" in December that it would be fair for
you to be abusive, when you've been abusive for years prior to that
"conclusion." Are you seriously going to suggest that prior to December you
weren't abusive to me and to others?

Yes, I know that you have a bizzarely twisted sense of humor. Last
December it started as a mob. It came down to me, you, Jerry and
Jonah. I asked where people would draw the line, and said that I
would step right up to their line and do the same. Johan said
that a line had been crossed and left. Jerry left and later
around March when I returned said that he couldn't remember that
far back. Even when I repeated put the quotes of what he had said
in front of him he denied any memory of it and asked me to take
it email which I did. For a sociopath like you there were no
lines.

As for fires, you're the one with the reputation to risk burning, not me.

Yes, I know. You are just the idiot attack dog and usenet troll. That
is why when Jerry and Jonah summoned you to do their dirtywork and
made nasty comments and left I lost all the respect that I had
previously had for them.

This time you have come to join with Bruce and Andrew. I hope that
they enjoy your company. I think your stench is dreadful even
three thousand miles away over the Internet.

I
could disappear tomorrow and few if anyone would notice.

I can believe that. But if you feel that you have a more
important contribution to make, attacking the cultists and
sicophants and mindless parrots as you say, and if the group
agrees with you, you can enjoy one another.

You on the other
hand, as the Oracle of Moore have a reputation. A reputation
that you are well on your way to tarnishing.

Whenever my name appears in something that you have written I
know perfectly well that shit is being thrown at me. I know
that this is your hobby and as you have said, no one can stop
you, this is usenet.

But that's your problem, not mine.

If in fact I am seen as offering anything to the group then
it is not just my problem. It is other people's problem as well.
Some are too sheepish to be counted, some will encourage you
because they don't like my opinions about ANS, some don't
want colorforth discussed, some don't want machineForth
discussed, some don't want public domain software discussed,
and some like you just don't like me because they feel that
I am arrogant or too old or too whatever.

I hope that your compatriots feel that they are in good company.
Perhaps they will thank you personally for being more blunt than
they are willing to be. Social programming as you say.

I wasn't aware I even had compatriots, but if you want to conflate me into
some other group you feel is against you, who am I to stand in the way of
your persecution complex.

People have told you that they were your fans in this newsgroup before.
You usually say in astonishment, I have fans? Hey it's usenet. ;-)

Best Wishes to all, and double for you as you really need them.
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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 02:20:36 EDT from "Jeff Fox" <fox@ultratechnology.com> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Fox hunt

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Any parting questions before I take off for some more
interesting destination?

I do enjoy running north through through the train tunnel
just barely missing the southbound express and running past
the spillway at the damn just before they open the gates
and over the rapids on a branch that won't support a
pack of hounds. I like to cross a meadow where I always
remind the nasty bull that those pesky dogs might try
to hound him again. I enjoy waking up a den of nasty snakes
as I pass by and sliding down a cliff face to a spot where
I know that I can just slip through the brambles. I like
crossing the expressway just before the rush hour traffic
gets there. I know where the rocks are that dot the tarpits
and make for a fun game. I like to jump over the old well
by the woods and kick the old large hornet's nest nearby as
I pass. I have always enjoyed that old fox and hounds game
and think it is good fun. And there are always a few more
fun tricks to play.

Best Wishes
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[#] Fri Jun 18 2004 02:09:14 EDT from "Sam Liddicott" <sam@liddicott.com> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Unix shell based in Forth

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:10d4virisoq5e87@corp.supernews.com...
Most people don't
use the ash shell or the Fluxbox window manager, but most distros
include both of them. Why not? They take up very little space.

The ash shell uses 94k of HDD and 380k of RAM. Surely some Forth
Guru can make a smaller shell than that!

Most people dont know when they use ash; but its used by RedHat and other
distros as part of the init radisk to control loading of kernel modules
before the real root-fs is loaded.

Sam


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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 04:19:42 EDT from "." <nocker@animail.net> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: comp.sys.amiga.uucp, comp.lang.forth, comp.doc.management, misc.fitness.weights, comp.graphics.api.pexlib

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comp.sys.amiga.uucp,comp.lang.forth,comp.doc.management,misc.fitness.weights,comp.graphics.api.pexlib
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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 06:11:56 EDT from "Arthur T. Murray" <uj797@victoria.tc.ca> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Brain Emulation

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"Dmitriy Samsonov" <lmd@manobo.com> wrote on Fri, 18 Jun 2004:

With the soft touch of a lover, IBM Fellow mfc created REXX in 1979 and
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/theory3.html#1979may08 and atm did AI.
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/mindrexx.html was REXX AI in 1994.
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/mind4th.html Forth AI began in 1998.
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/ai4umind.html is now in JavaScript.
AI has been solved with a Cognitive Architecture that emulates the brain.
I carefully read all the pages. But I still can't get
how does your software emulates brain?

The Mind-1.1 AI software emulates the thought processes of the brain.

What it definitly does, is emulation of some functional
blocks and their interconnections, you think brain consists of.
Nothing more.
Yes, you are right. It is very primitive software, but it thinks.

If it is possible, please provide me with a results of
at least Turing test,
Sorry; we don't start ("at least") with the Turing test;
we *finish* with the Turing Test when AI is very advanced :-)

and allow me to do some time measures of your
AI solving different easy problems.

The AI thinks, but it does not yet solve problems.
It is almost at the stage where it may start to
demonstrate syllogistic reasoning.

http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/aisteps.html#aitree is the
Alife main artificial intelligence loop calling mind-modules:
enBoot English Bootstrap module for pre-loading concepts

I suggest that you read The Arthur T. Murray/Mentifex FAQ
http://www.generation5.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=370 FYI.

There you will find not vicious lies but honest truth.

Thank you for investigaing the Mentifex claims that
AI has been solved. Please be patient. Oppose war.

atm
--
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/307824.307853 - ACM - Mind.Forth
http://isbn.nu/0595654371 -- AI4U textbook of robot AI Mind
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/mentifex_faq.html ATM FAQ
http://www.sl4.org/archive/0205/3829.html -- Ph.D. Goertzel
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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 06:09:51 EDT from "Stephen Pelc" <stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Unicode (was OT: Speaking in Tongues)

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:27:47 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
(Anton Ertl) wrote:

Such experiences should be transferable to UTF-8. What I wonder about
is: What are the experiences with using UTF-8 or other variable-width
character encodings with code that was not designed for variable-width
characters from the start? How much breakage was there, how hard was
it to find the breakage, and to fix it?

I get the impression that variable-width character encodings were not
used for the DCS (developer character sets).

The papers are draft proposals based on techniques from years of
experience at CCS and Micross, with additional input from others.

Using variable width encodings for the developer character set
(DCS) breaks too much code and introduces kernel complexity, so
nobody wants to do that. Hence the application character set (ACS)
which now can be defined separately from the DCS. This permits
you to avoid most of the issues of COUNT and CMOVE etc.

If you want different character sets/encodings for each of them, this
is messy, confusing, and probably error-prone. In particular the
division between host/development and application eliminates one of
the advantages of Forth: the absence of such a division.
The drafts reflect reality: the vast majority of existing hosted
Forths assume char=byte=address-unit. We still see application
programmers using COUNT to step through memory.

But Unicode offers us a different perspective: Everyone uses the same
character set/encoding in the source code and in the application;
At the time the drafts were written there were languages for which
Unicode encodings did not exist. UTF-16 is not adequate and even
some embedded systems with 16 bit Forths need run-time selection
of display language.

Looking at other programming languages, I don't see them sporting a
DCS, OCS, and ACS (or maybe I did not look close enough). I doubt
that they are used any less for international applications than Forth.
C effectively recognises DCS and ACS by having chars and wide
chars. All that we did was to realise that the operating system
can use another encoding, OCS. Again, this just reflects reality
at the time the drafts were written.

Supporting different DCS, OCS, and ACS could be an option (that I
don't intend to implement), but my question was about having UTF-8 as
a common CS.
UTF-8 is fine as a transfer standard. But any variable width
encoding scheme will be incompatible with common practice for
fixed-width encoding. We just recognised that and accepted the
consequences.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 07:16:44 EDT from "Alex McDonald" <alex_mcd@btopenworld.com> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Re: Unicode (was OT: Speaking in Tongues)

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

"Anton Ertl" <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in message
news:2004Jun18.104848@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...

===snipped


2) Variable-width characters, where each Unicode character may consist
of several Forth chars (e.g., UTF-8). This would break Forth programs
that manipulate individual characters (e.g., anagram and palindrome
programs), but not programs that use C@/C! to deal with blocks/strings
of characters.

A Forth system that used UTF-8 could still be argued to conform to ANS
Forth, since it works correctly for the characters supported by ANS
Forth (ASCII characters, which are a single byte in UTF-8, too).

However, I consider it problematic to extend ANS Forth in this way
(i.e., by saying that UTF-8 is supported in extended-ANS-Forth), since
a correct ANS Forth program would not necessarily be a correct
extended-ANS-Forth program.

That I can't see; can you explain? As a correct ANS Forth program would be a
subset (in character terms) of an extended-ANS-Forth program, why would an
extended-ANS-system not correctly process it?


OTOH, I believe that fewer programs would be broken by such an
extension, and in fewer places, than with the wide-character variant
(but the broken programs in this case are ANS Forth programs, whereas
they are not pure ANS Forth programs in the wide-character variant).

Concerning the questions of what C@, C!, and the counts in CMOVE,
COUNT etc. refer to, of course they would refer to (fixed-width) Forth
chars, not Unicode characters. EMIT and KEY would have to buffer
stuff, converting sequences of Forth chars to/from Unicode characters.


Again, A.3.1.2 Character types; 5) For the purposes of input (KEY, ACCEPT,
etc.) and output (EMIT, TYPE, etc.), the encoding between numbers and
human-readable symbols is ISO646/IRV (ASCII) within the range from 32 to 126
(space to ~).

So anything outside that range has an environmental dependency; standard
programs should be fine in a UTF-8 system?


Originally I leaned towards option 1, because it fits perfectly with
the ANS Forth standard, i.e., works without change for all existing
standard programs.

If COUNTED-BUFF 1+ is considered non-standard (or 1 \STRING for addr-len
buffers). There's lots of code out there that doesn't use CHARS or CHAR+ ; I
know that 3.3.3.1 says that "Adding or subtracting an arbitrary number to an
address can produce an unaligned address that shall not be used to fetch or
store anything", but how much code abides by that restriction? Any
wide-character system will suffer from this problem, but the advantage of
UTF-8 is that programs that are non-standard on this one point only will
continue to run correctly.

However, in the meantime I am more pragmatist than
purist in this area, so I also consider it important to keep existing
programs with common environmental dependences working, and I now
think that the ANS Forth code broken by UTF-8 is not as much as I used
to think, so now I am leaning more towards option 2.

Has anyone done a Forth system with UTF-8 and can report experiences?

FILE-POSITION as you note (seperate thread in reply to Stephen Pelc) on
non-BIN files might be an issue, but given that line endings are not defined
and are variable length (CR/LF/CRLF) then the issue is moot; it's almost
impossible to use on a text file and remain ANS unless the result from
FILE-POSITION is treated as opaque. UTF-8 adds no complications to this.

I'm leaning towards UTF-8 myself; W32F should be able to compile UTF-8
source with no to little change. I think that the only change might be an
increase to the length of the SOURCE buffer, and a check in OPEN-FILE for
hex EF BB BF (which I believe to be the UTF-8 lead-in sequence).
Frustratingly, the editor I currently use supports ASCII Latin-1 and UTF-16
only; are there any decent text editors for Windows that support UTF-8?
Notepad supports UTF-8, but it's not really suitable.

--
Regards
Alex McDonald


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[#] Sat Jun 19 2004 07:33:06 EDT from "George Hubert" <george@tvhifi-microtec.co.uk> to comp.lang.forth@groups.mcmentertainment.net

Subject: Ann: Win32Forth V6.09.07

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Now available for downloading at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/win32forth/files/Distros/w32f60907.exe
and also at
www.win32forth.org
includes a profect manager, and updated version of the ForthForm that helps
design toolbars as well as forms and a demo of the new editor control, to be
used in WinEd's replacement.

George Hubert


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