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[#] Mon Jul 13 2009 16:57:40 EDT from t1 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Roadmap for Citadel 7.60>>>Integration Windows 2003 Active Directory

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ah,so besides the AD integration, release 7.60 is also planting a man on the moon :)

May 3

Roadmap for Citadel 7.60


It's been a long journey with you guys, 2 years i think. But talking about travelling, maybe it's time to pack my bags and and the the express lane somewhere else :), plenty of tickets available.

Going to have dinner and will drop back to write my thoughts about your website and this BBS support forum and GPL. Nothing negative, positive critics that might help you guys in the future.




Mon Jul 13 2009 04:20:42 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: Roadmap for Citadel 7.60>>>Integration Windows 2003 Active Directory
Based on the number of new features that have been checked in to the tree during a feature freeze, the next version of Citadel is now expected to be released on January 19, 2038. It might be later than that but I only have a 32-bit system.


[#] Mon Jul 13 2009 18:19:09 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Thanks. your criticism will arive right after your first contribution.

[#] Mon Jul 13 2009 19:37:21 EDT from t1 @ Uncensored

Subject: Integration with Windows 2003 Active Directory

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Listen... why should I contribute. I'm an user. Do you realalize that USER. spelled userssss :)

The best contribution a user can give is actually to use your software and recommend, publicize it. Done both. Even voted for you guys for best enterprise software, which I'm sorry I have done, not because of the software itself but because if some of the socio-pats behind it :) Again I'm an user, that's all you can expect from me. But funny enough was going to contribute with my webcit template.

I really don't understand the bitterness from you guys. I think it's money or the lack of it.... don't really know... In any case it's funny the way you use GPL to excuse everything except the fact that you are obnoxious, unprofessional. I had never seen software administrators addressing users like you do here. You retarded, unpolished, useless answer is just an example of it. Just giving GPL a bad name. Why don't you spend more time in the support forum helping people, well maybe because it's not actually a support forum.

Seen it over and over again in the so called support forum:) Always the same... contribution and GPL. It's just an obnoxious attitude from people that launch a project (maybe they shouldn't) and can't stand any improvement requests or criticism. Please get out of your little hole and go to proper open source (FREE) support forums... ex joomla. Also go to school and learn manners:), you are clearly missing personal skills to give support.

Ok... was going to talk about your useless website and search engine, ah yes the your pre-historic BBS support :).... I think joomla as everything you guys need for website and support, even conduct relating to users :) You guys clearly don't desert any more comments. Please continue your best efforts to act as human beings.

Remember not to use GPL as a constant reminder of your failures, lack of abilities, unprofessionalisms and lack of manners :)

Which you guys the best


Mon Jul 13 2009 06:19:09 PM EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

Thanks. your criticism will arive right after your first contribution.


[#] Mon Jul 13 2009 22:35:34 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Integration with Windows 2003 Active Directory

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Wow, if that was your idea of "nothing negative" then I'd hate to see what you would have written if you didn't like us.

As with any volunteer-driven software project, we do the best we can with the resources we have available.  As such, we have to prioritize, by level of impact, the things we spend our time on.  Unfortunately not everyone can be at the front of the queue.  In this case, our release date slipped again because some new code appeared which I didn't expect to see -- I've already made some complaints internally about new code appearing in the tree during a feature freeze.  Hopefully this will not happen again, but it's our problem to deal with.

In the meantime, we would prefer to release the new version when we feel it has met our quality standards than to allow buggy code to trash people's groupware servers.  I've been there, and it isn't a happy place.  It's what motivated me to start transforming Citadel into a groupware server more than a decade ago.

Yes, the release date slipped, and for this I apologize.  If this is not acceptable given the circumstances then perhaps free software is not for you

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 04:03:51 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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All I'm hearing from you is "could" "should"  "have to".

You know, its like you showing up to a bottle party with empty hands. Everybody brought his part, and is willing to share it with you. But instead of being thankfull and enjoying the party, you start complaining that the beer doesn't meet your standard. Your demand for champaign and havanas isn't served adequately. The hosts wife doesn't show up frequently enough to entertain you.

So, you spoiled everybody else the party, found new friends, ay?

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 06:20:42 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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It's actually somewhat encouraging that t1 opted to take this approach.

He's frustrated because the software is very close to what he wants, but not quite.  He doesn't want to go to something else, but he must in order to accomplish his goals.

Which means he really, really wants to use Citadel, but it's just not quite what he needs.  He has an emotional investment, or he'd just walk away without saying anything.

When I compare free support from non-free support, I do generally see a difference.

The non-free support almost always sucks up abuse from customers and puts forth some pleasant tone.  But, in the end, they have to prioritize, too... and if they can't adjust their product to your needs (because your needs are too specialized or something), you have absolutely no recourse whatsoever.  You'll get a lot of happy 'sorry we couldn't help you' stuff from them, no matter how nasty you act towards them.

The free, volunteer-driven support isn't quite that pleasant.  If you're pushy to them, they'll push right back.  There is no boss behind the volunteer to keep behavior in check.  They work according to their schedule as well as they can, and they'll be brutally honest with you about when they can get to something, since they don't really have anything to lose.  If you act nasty to them, they'll just not have anything to do with you (at best).  And, honestly, how else can one expect a volunteer to act?  If you went to one of those places that gives food to the homeless, and started complaining that they didn't have the particular kind of vegetable you wanted, I suspect you'd get a similar reaction... especially if you get ugly with them.  And having worked with volunteer choir members, I know what would happen if you did this kind of thing to a church choir.

But... you still have recourse when working with open-source software.  Although you yourself may not be a coder, you can still hire someone else to address whatever you want addressed, and have the changes submitted as a patch towards the open-source software (hopefully for inclusion in the main branch).  You don't even have that recourse with closed-source, since nobody can see the source but the folks who own the software.  It might cost you something, which sucks, but at least you can do something about it.

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 08:47:05 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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What I wrote aside, we probably could improve the support website, although I can't really say that I would know how. It's much better than it was in earlier days, but people often mention that they have problems finding such-and-so answer, and wind up asking on the forums (only to be given the link that they couldn't find). That tells me that we have a problem with the support site (at least, when it happens often... you'll always have some folks who don't want to bother looking).

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 08:53:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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True. We could use a couple of really good technical documentation writers.
The web site is more informative and more searchable than it was in the past, but it still does leave some people wondering where to look. Until the words "best kept secret" stop appearing in otherwise glowing reviews of the Citadel system, we've got more work to do. :)

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 09:03:27 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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I've read through some german debian site, and next to the faq not being translated I found our most favourite support item in the last year:

how does mail acualy work? People talk about it as receiving mail / sending mail out etc, but its actualy an indicator that they actualy just don't know how smtp & friends work, since this is nothing special to Citadel.

I'd say, citadel brings them that fast to that point, so they didn't even start researching and reading faq's etc, so they end up being lost on that topic without having changed their "research-attitude" in advance by configuring imap, mail, nailing it together, which takes hours of work and research with other tools.

Next i'd say google doesn't do a good job in finding our wiki articles even if they point out how to do this; the wiki search does this much better.


I've started out a document here at the weekend:


(which I must admit I found by remembering a keyword which is inside...)

It probably could use some nice pictures giving that text a nicer look. We then need to promote it at the right places.


The jomla site was much worse than the dokuwiki is now. One thing the dokuwiki is missing is a 'next article on this level' if s.b. just scans through them to self educate.

I've replaced the jstrees with whats there now to increase the browseability, and i'd say its better than it was with  that. A little bad is, that they're unsorted... One would need some "importance" tag in the sub articles influencing the sorting...

A quote i've also read in that support forum: its not always easy to find, but in general offers all information you need; even if it sometimes requires reading through some pages.



[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 10:10:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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All of the above is true, but it is still important for us to offer "service with a smile" even in cases where we are unable to give the "customer" what he is asking for. When someone runs off and tells everyone how much they think we suck, the resulting negative PR sets us back.

We advertise the Citadel system as being easy to install, so we do have to expect that we're going to get a lot of newbies. Just because they're newbies it doesn't mean that they have license to just demand that we do all the work for them without them taking the time to understand the basic tenets of how a mail system works, but when we tell someone that they have to do a little homework, we must do so *gently*.

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 10:14:08 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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done some chatter in #dokiwiki, maybe one of the guys will write us such a plugin that does the < > links.

maybe we then need to alter all articles to start with like


but that should be a bash one-liner i'd say.

i'll idle there and track what they do.


[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 10:40:50 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Heh.. 'perv/next'... Aahz would be pleased.

[#] Tue Jul 14 2009 11:35:33 EDT from wizard of aahz @ Uncensored

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yes. he is.

[#] Thu Sep 24 2009 17:50:22 EDT from themgt @ Uncensored

Subject: Recent citadel ebuilds for gentoo

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Long time no see...

But finally I take pride in presenting recently updated and polished ebuilds for libcitadel, citadel and webcit!

They are still in testing phase and currently only support citadel as main MTA, but so far they work pretty good.


Feedback is welcome


Di Jul 07 2009 18:22:18 EDT von dothebart @ Uncensored

themgt, i've set up the gentoo chroot; I guess I'm ready to give it a test drive. where is it? ;-)


[#] Sun Oct 04 2009 19:02:54 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

Subject: All new and shiny ebuilds are ready and gone into sunrise

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I reworked, polished and carefully adjusted the gentoo ebuilds and they were accepted into the sunrise overlay.

They have to be pushed into the reviewed tree, only after that will sunrise users be able to see them locally. But that is now just a matter of time, will happen the next days.

For the not-so-patient people there is still a tarball on

Please spread the news and try them while they are still hot! ;)

[#] Thu Nov 26 2009 22:57:44 EST from ax25 @ Uncensored

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When was it not time to relegate windows to a vm only existence :-)


[#] Sun Nov 29 2009 22:44:12 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Answer: when it's time to get rid of it completely, of course.

[#] Mon Nov 30 2009 02:40:27 EST from Harbard @ Uncensored

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I still need windows...can't play Starcraft in Linux even using Wine.  'course it's only a game...and an old one at that.

[#] Fri Dec 11 2009 01:46:15 EST from hubie @ Uncensored

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Mon Nov 30 2009 02:40:27 EST from Harbard @ Uncensored

I still need windows...can't play Starcraft in Linux even using Wine.  'course it's only a game...and an old one at that.

Say it ain't so (I was just about to try it on my Ubuntu laptop).  Have you tried some of the howtos out there?

[#] Fri Dec 11 2009 19:27:12 EST from Harbard @ Uncensored

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I haven't looked for awhile, but Starcraft was listed as a program with little or no support in WINE. I also tried on my own to get it to work, but no luck.   Considering the age of the game (it's prehistoric) I doubt that anyone will make much of an effort to update the API for it.  I'll just have to keep one of my Pentium machines running Windows ME as a game server for it....

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